« Back to John12346's blog
I'm Not Here to Argue: Day 2 - Brinstar
posted to the public at 7:31 PM on Tuesday Jun 19, 2012
Recommendation, perhaps?

Alright, since there was quite a bit of good conversation thrown around in Day 1 - Ledge Grab Limit, I'm gonna go ahead and continue this little series of mine! If you're not sure how the INHTA Blog Series is meant to function, check the first two paragraphs of this blog, to understand that we're not here to debate or anything like that. Throw out your own opinion about the subject at hand, and leave. Don't respond to anyone else; just make your own thoughts known, otherwise it defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to accomplish.
.
.
.
.
.
So let's talk about Brinstar!

It's a very controversial counterpick stage, that is seen on and off with usage in various tournaments, mainly due to its intricate properties. It's also one of the stages that seems to see the most heated of debates in arguments between conservative and liberal stagelist battles. The stage features semi-uneven terrain, close blastzones, a transparent floor, and acid that runs on a semi-consistent timer that can be reacted to(You can read about how Brinstar's acid functions here. Educate yourselves.).

Those on the conservative side would call Brinstar far too intrusive to gameplay. It has a very wonky design that can interfere with combat and cause times of serious camping. In addition, the acid, random or not, is far too intrusive to a match, causing players to adapt their movements around this entirely new factor instead of focusing on their opponent. With the stage causing players to play an entirely new style, conservatives believe that Brinstar causes gameplay to shift away from PvP and towards an experience they would describe as PvPvS, which is not something we should not have to deal with in this game.

Those on the liberal side, however, believe this to be a stage whose inherent design can be adapted to with the proper amount of knowledge. The uneven terrain and close blast lines are not something uncommon to counterpick stages, and even the acid runs on a timer and gives you a lot of time to react to it properly. The players should be expected to know how the stage works, causing gameplay to become P+SvP+S, as learning how to play on an unfamiliar stage is one of the skills you should possess in order to play this game. Even though the stage can cause a match to play out differently than how it would on, say, Smashville, that's just it - it's a different way to play the game, and an experience for you and your opponent to take your best advantage of.

That's right, folks! It's a classic conservative vs liberal battle right here on AiB! Which side will you take!? Give your reasoning! Why should it be legal or banned?

For anyone who cares, I'm on the side of keeping Brinstar legal.

One note: DO NOT include Meta Knight in your reasoning. We already know MK rapes Brinstar, but that alone is not a precedent to ban a stage. Evaluate the stage by its inherent qualities, not by what a [few] characters could potentially do with the stage.
Recommended by Sakram3nt, t1mmy, t0mmy

Comments

1 2
Sakram3nt wrote at 7:31 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Perhaps yes

Pentasalia wrote at 7:32 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
yes, bring back this amazing stage please.

/srs

Grimm wrote at 7:35 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
hyes

RakanIsReal wrote at 7:37 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Characters with multiple jumps ruin this stage, the same thing even applies to melee, when jiggly puff became more prominent the gameplay for the stage became lamer.

You have to fight a certain style on this stage, which is get really good at sharking or you can counter it with MORE SHARKING. Its a stage that negates the type of gameplay were trying to achieve with the rules.

Rayquaza07 wrote at 7:37 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
norfair=better

brin has such small blastzones

Illmatic. wrote at 7:41 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
legalize

John12346 wrote at 7:42 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
People, give your REASONING. Reeeasoning, it's the whole point of this blog.

RunC.T. wrote at 7:43 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
honestly, I'm down with making a legal stage out of brinstar. works well with strategy based play.

Illmatic. wrote at 7:47 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
legalize it

Illmatic. wrote at 7:47 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
legal

Illmatic. wrote at 7:47 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
leeegal

Bloodynite wrote at 7:48 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
GIVE ME BRINSTAR SO I CAN DO THIS AGAIN http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=e6xHvcSzA40#t=57s

Sorg wrote at 7:49 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Lmfao^

RunC.T. wrote at 7:49 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
mybad about double post.

the stage only becomes random when players lose their focus/get pressured on the stage, and their momentum and strategy becomes "random" imo.
also the stage itself changes the way you would strategize than on a regular neutral, given the fact stage control is absolutely essential on any stage, brinstar will prompt you to control certain parts of the stage, which turns the fight into a "king of the hill" style play.

but ya, that's my reasoning behind brinstar being legal. adds a good counterpicking element.

Bloodynite wrote at 7:49 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
oh yeah and the fact that its a GREAT counter vs any character with a crappy airgame i personally counterpick almost ANYONE there INCLUDING MKs

probably because im just crazy


oh and i got plenty of other gimmicks on that stage too

Tuen wrote at 7:49 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
I'll come back and post more later... but I have done my own realm of research. I have recorded at least 11 different acid heights, 4-5 different rise speeds, 3-4 fall speeds, and a much higher variance in timed appearances than previous research has documented. However, I have not had enough time to start replications of this process or find any overarching patterns (like what happens if I sort the sections into three and document the pattern... or the rise/fall timing between different measurements).

So yeah, initial results show that it's much more random than it has been let on before, so due to that alone, I do not like this stage.

I'm also generally against stages that can actually do harm to the player, so there's that too.

Bloodynite wrote at 8:01 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
*keeps refreshing page*

Vermanubis wrote at 8:14 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Ill, come on, man. Posts like that derail things like this. If you guys're gonna post, post a reason as well.

Bloodynite wrote at 8:16 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Verm i got more than ENOUGH reasons to post why they should legalize brinstar.... EVEN WITHOUT GANON

TymeR wrote at 8:35 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
I have always found Brinstar to be incredibly balanced actually. Like Halberd, it has hazards that both players should be aware of to play the stage correctly. Exploiting it is always a good thing to do in stages such as that. Castle Siege is more gimmicky than Brinstar (falling through the stage for example during transformation) and it was a counter pick for a longer duration. It also allows for more variety in game play besides the boring stages that are neutrals which tend to be bland and have nothing to it but platforms. Spicing up the game also allows more relevance to counter picking with characters and give more options or fair matches.

Hukster wrote at 8:43 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
I don't see anything wrong about the stage really, helps Ness and Lucas from Marth's infinite, and other types of infinites.

Not CT Bloodcross wrote at 8:54 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Watch out for acid at 7:08, 4:51 and 0:26. That's when the acid covers the main stage.

Anyway, I think this stage is better in an MK-banned environment. That's all I got honestly.

Rigatoni wrote at 8:56 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
brinstar should be banned with the low tiers

Legendary Try-Hard Of The South wrote at 8:58 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Even as a diddy kong / MK main I think the stage interferes with gameplay way too much I feel that way about every counterpick.... I'm in favor of the Japanese ruleset

Kimidori wrote at 9:05 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Well, let's see: if Brinstar...
1. Breaks infinites to the point of those infinites being nearly unusable
2. Has gimmicky tricks to it (such as in Bloodynite's video)
3. Basically FORCES players to stay away from IC's, Diddy Kong, Olimar (lesser so but still), Falco, and possibly even a few more
4. Forces players to move awkwardly around the stage
5. Both saves and screws players over
6. Requires VERY EXTENSIVE knowledge of the stage to perfect gameplay on
It should never have even been considered a counterpick. Heck, we might as well legalize Temple if we legalize this. After all, Temple doesn't have any interferences, players can obviously adapt to the fact that their opponent can camp at the bottom. Who cares if their forced to approach. "It brings strategy". /sarcasm

Kimidori wrote at 9:10 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
They're*

Bloodynite wrote at 9:19 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
with that logic in 3 then you might as well list what characters would ALWAYS stay away from other stages like Frigate

the breaking infinites isn't true as you can still do them but have to be worried about the surrounding environment (the top platform will allow ice climbers to still perform their own infinites)

and i don't even understand why 5 is there

Bloodynite wrote at 9:22 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
also the gimmicks on the stage are not always full proof and always have a pretty high risk to them and even my little gimmick costs me a direct hit to the lava

Triforce of Chozo wrote at 9:41 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Brinstar is a very quirky and unique stage that as far as I can see poses no balance problems. Both players have a fair amount of time to react to the acid, and most of the time it causes players to fight more than it causes them to camp as someone will usually end up vulnerable when trying to flee to higher ground.

Dahniska wrote at 9:46 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
This may seem biased, cause I use a character that doesn't do very well on the stage, but I don't think it should be legal.

I feel that in general, stages that directly hurt the player should be illegal (only exception is Halberd, and the reason why is because it ALWAYS does two attacks per cycle - the laser and the crane - and each can be seen coming a mile away, and have a very huge startup time and can be simply shielded or avoided without it affecting gameplay for extended periods of time). Any stage that attacks the player directly interferes with gameplay. Also, the sides are ridiculously close, leading to very stupid early deaths all the time. The stage itself can be attacked, which leads to dumb abuse of it with powerful moves (which is unlike Castle Siege where that can happen but only at a certain part of the stage), and this happens over and over, making it pretty gimmicky.

On top of all that, the stage ITSELF really really hurts certain characters like ICs, Falco, Diddy and more, unlike most stages. I mean, sure, Frigate isn't very good for some characters, but at least it has transformations which are basically the same as neutral stages, and even the characters that aren't good at Frigate can still do ok there. But on Brinstar... yeah. Also it gives a somewhat ridiculous boost to GaW, Wario and a few other aerial based characters. Sure, that's the point of a counterpick, but I think this stage with all its gimmicks and stuff takes it a bit too far.

If we're going to allow it, Norfair should be allowed, as well as PS2. Heck, I could even see Hanenbow fitting in our stagelist alongside Brinstar if we keep it, which further makes me feel that the stage shouldn't be legal.

juiceAllied wrote at 9:48 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Brinstar is random

BSP wrote at 9:52 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Alright John, from looking at inherent qualities, Brinstar should be legal. The main problem with the stage is the acid. It hurts you and, at the end of the day, regardless of how much you pay attention to it, it's random. This is an immediate turnoff to the stage for most as you said. However, if Brinstar is sacked for randomness, Yoshi's Island really needs some looking into because it has some pretty significant random qualities as well, yet it's a starter.

In short: Off of inherent qualities, the Stage is not broken and should be legal. Brinstar would serve as an amazing CP against characters that focus on ground game (most of A tier tbh)

Bloodynite wrote at 9:52 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
juiceAllied wrote at 9:48 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
Brinstar is random

the acid raising and lowering is NOT random

the stage flipping over on frigate IS random

also in regards to hurting certain characters... how many stages are there CURRENTLY that significantly hurt characters who heavily rely on a ground based game? id say a few

t1mmy wrote at 10:07 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
The stage has elements that deal damage and knockback, therefore it should not be used... from a purely competitive viewpoint.

And on a personal note: I dislike the part of the stage that you get stuck in when simply walking/running. It's more irritating to me than random tripping. The ground was at least fine in Melee, but they made it worse when they remade it for Brawl. Go figure.

Bloodynite wrote at 10:39 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
t1mmy wrote at 10:07 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
The stage has elements that deal damage and knockback, therefore it should not be used... from a purely competitive viewpoint.

Halberd says hi

John12346 wrote at 10:47 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
What'd I say about responding to people >__>

Bloodynite wrote at 10:53 PM on Jun 19, 2012 :
my bad got carried away

t0mmy wrote at 12:06 AM on Jun 20, 2012 :
The less environmental impact the more skill is involved.
Since the Competitive Arena is concerned with the more skilled player then Brinstar is detrimental with its environmental damage. If it didn't have the random acid events then it'd probably be considered for competitive play.

As it is it should be in the category of "Extended" where the TO can extend the stage list into more controversial stages if his attendees make it clear they want that.
TO's word is law, and he serves the people.

With that said, in tournaments I host I put Brinstar in the "Agreed Upon Only" area. Only the worst of stages are "banned" the rest are either toggled on for tournament play or must be agreed upon by BOTH players and they should have a referee present when they agree to play on the stage otherwise the result of the round played could be null & void.

GnG Sinnyboo242 wrote at 12:15 AM on Jun 20, 2012 :
ban brinstar

The_SuperiorTaste wrote at 12:40 AM on Jun 20, 2012 :
Brinstar shouldn't be legal because the acid deals damage, forcing players to move to a certain location on the stage and overall screwing up particular characters play-style and a gain for others.

1 2