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To all who think low tiers are harder to master
posted to the public at 7:52 AM on Tuesday Mar 9, 2010
Isnt it funny that there has been no cases where a good low tier player picks up a top tier and becomes pro within a short timespan? I cant honestly name a single person in brawl ( In melee i have only seen Mew2king, and i dont even know how long it took before he became top after dropping mew2 ). There is also hundreds of examples off top tier players ****ing around with a low tier and raping people who have spent years and years of playing a low tier.

Isnt it funny that there has been no low tier player who has had extreme reading skills? According to most low tier players logic this should be even easier since most options are not viable if you do not read your opponent.

Isnt it funny how every single low tier player claims that all meta knight mains are biased ( they are though, by far the most biased mains in the smash scene ) when they themselves are easily the second most biased players in the smash scene.

Low tier mains are also the most weakminded players in the smash scene, the usual pot fodder and they will always be.
The reason behind this is not their character, always remember this.
It is because they are either 1. Denying that their character is easier to master than 90% of the middle and above tiers, thus focusing way to much on wrong aspects. 2.
They beleive they are much better than players who play top tiers , and in cases like "I PLACED THE SAME AS A MK MAIN LOL!" is a 100% foolproof SCRUB statement. As is "everyone say that after playing me everyone thinks X low tier character is viable!".

Placing as good as is almost never a legit john. Especially considering how much advantage low tiers get from being just that, low tier.
Top tier players never use that john, because it is seen as wrong by the community by a mk to say " I placed as high as another mk and therefor i think i am now a complete pro mk main " like every single low tier player does.

How often have you heard a low tier player say " Damn son, i placed X, WITH X!
and the comments always follows " Damn son, X is really viable etc etc".
Low tier mains settle down wayyyyy too easy, they give up wayyyyy to easy and they always base their feeling towards his own skill on how much the crowd is telling him that just HIS ganondorf is awesome, that they really see how many months and years he has practiced those GANONDORF skills .  Aka not his really needed matchups, but in 95% cases the character itself, who is horribly easy to master and the rest is training versus low tier matchups .

99% of the biased friends and facers of these low tier mains COMPLETELY ignore that most of the top tier players could place higher with the very same low tier character.

As always, there is a few exceptions but they are very few.

All low tier characters ( except ganondorf ) can win a national tournament,  but nearly noone off these characters will ever get a main that truly deserves to even MAIN a low tier.


The options and their viability will always determine their tier placements, and thus how hard they are to master, and furthermore how many percent of mainers who are scrubs.


Low tiers, don't ****ing fool yourself, it will do no good and regardless of what character you play with, a placement in a tourney will never be more deserved to the low tier player than the high tier ( because of their character ).






And now for the obvious " LOL DUDE DO IT URSELF IF ITS TOO EASY " except that it is beside from the point, i am actually willing to pick up a low tier ( you guys can choose whoever ) to prove my point icon_smile


lolbored

Comments

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AfroTwist BananaPie wrote at 10:07 AM on Mar 9, 2010 :
You have some valid statesments and I agree to some extent. Although I think you're basing your whole arguement of the wrong the wrong points.
Basically learning curve =/= tiers.
As far as I know you think low tiers lacks options, right? Well most of them lacks good options, it's not the number that matters.
Now if you have good options, does it make it harder to make the right choice than if you had bad options? If you make the wrong decision, but use a good option, getting punished for it is much less likely than if you make the wrong discussion with a bad option.
There are more characters with linear metagames that are easy to pick up (not master) low on the tier list than anywhere else, sure. Still there are better characters with just as linear metagames that should be just as easy to pick up.

Anyways that's not really what this blog is about. It's just that saying that wether a character is easy to play or not is about how good the characters are about is kinda stupid.

But yeah, successful players are just way more into competing than low tier mains, and are naturally usually better. In the end the best way to determine skill is placings, records and so on. Character skill shouldn't really be a factor >_>

As for the last part, I'll cut off all my hair (I'm fawking serious) if you can pick up Link and get him as good as mine.

User was warned for this post.
Enrish wrote at 10:44 AM on Mar 9, 2010 :
I've thought about this. Often when I lose to a MK when using Jigglypuff I think "Wow, I bet you'd suck with every other character.", which is obviously wrong. What I realized though is I'm not thinking it's harder to master Jigglypuff(because I think Jigglypuff has to be one of the easiest, if not easiest to learn) but harder to win with. There's obvious reasons why. I never argue this though because it's a stupid argument and that thought in my head is automatic. What I see that matters is if/how I'd express that thought in my head.

Sure, MK is one of those characters a noob can pick up and be decent with but at a pro level they'd get stomped. They would probably even lose to a Ganondorf, Link or Jigglypuff. I would definitely say Snake or Wario are the hardest characters to master and it has nothing to do with where they list, it's just that have so many different things they have a huge variety of options to take. Snake has his down smash, C4 and two grenades that can be out while he's still doing moves and that'd why I'd say he's complicated. Wario is complicated because of his bike, fart and maybe super armor. They could be bottom tier but because they still have all that to worry about it makes the much harder to master.

Anyways my argument may be invalid, I'm no pro. I'm just stating what I think and see.

Mao-Kai wrote at 11:13 AM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Falcon.

THE krikke wrote at 11:18 AM on Mar 9, 2010 :
hmm, any low tier huh?
does that include ganon? XD
try and get as good as gov with him;)
or as verm, then we'll talk further...

Silva. wrote at 11:52 AM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Agrees with Afro

Uffe wrote at 12:52 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
I'll use FOW as an example. He mains what used to be a low-tier character (Ness), but now has a pretty good MK as a secondary. Anyway, low-tiers don't have very good options, so they have to make the most of using just about every attack and defense method as possible as opposed to a high or top-tier character. Being able to use all your attacks in different ways with a character that IS good, yeah, I'd think it'd make you do better with a character that isn't low-tier.

Mr. E wrote at 1:33 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Yes, playing a perfect low tier is easier than playing a perfect top tier, due the fact that they are really onesided and doesn't have much potential to grow far, however saying a high tier main could just pick up a low tier character and play better or just as good as a low tier main pisses me off. I don't play brawl as much as i used so i'm not as good, but i remember how annoying it was to use a low tier character against other character who could simply do a few tilts and kill you. I'm not a serious compeditor, never where, i've just wanted to see how well i placed with my low tier main, and i got to say i'm sure i did we'll compared to my crappy character. There's just no excuse to lose to a crappy character with a high tier. Say that the only reason the other person won is that he used MK is dumb, but i can easily say that i've had far more exiting matches against characters that don't just run being able to win with a few button clicks.

The reason picking a high tier character by a low tier main is hard is basicly because playing a low tier is fun, it's rarely a feeling that's better than beating a good MK main with Jiggs. You grow attached to a character where you focus on one aspect which really isn't important to most other high tiers.
When you try to play a high tier you get bored easily bored, because you gota start from scratch on a character where you used to try to discover new stuff about and perfect it, while on the high tier you gota learn basics advanced tecniques and completely change your playstyle.

Meeeh, my head hurts so it might be alitle hard to read, but whatever.

Leffen wrote.
All low tier characters ( except ganondorf ) can win a national tournament, but nearly noone off these characters will ever get a main that truly deserves to even MAIN a low tier. \ \
People who attend to national tournaments rarely use low tiers, and if they did they would have to be much better than the high tier mains because some matchups are plain stupid.

S1-14 wrote at 1:58 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
MadNESS

ViceGrip wrote at 2:01 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Ness and Sonic moved out of low tier due to good tourney results, so it is possible to have smart players main 'bad' characters but I get where you are coming from. Good blog.

Toki Hakurei wrote at 2:03 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
You make it look like Brawl is nothing but a miserable little pile of excuses that contradict each other to no end.

Toki Hakurei wrote at 2:05 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Wait... ANY blog that puts Brawl in a competitive scene makes it look like a miserable little pile of excuses that contradict each other to no end.

leffen wrote at 3:40 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
@AFRO
Of course not, i was just saying that more options generally equal higher tier list placement
About picking wrong options , that is suceeding with a good character vs a bad character, not MASTERING ( aka picking the BEST option everytime ).

Uffe
Yeah FOW no has a DECENT mk that he has beaten noone with that is still crappier than his ness.
Ally picked up falcon and got the best in the world in a matter of days with him and beat good players like JUDGE.
See my point?
Enrish
Imo snake isnt that hard, just because he doesnt space all that much, imo Diddy, ICs, MK Falco Pikachu Zss are harder imo.
Mr.E
Im sorry, but its apparent you didnt read or understand the blog fully. Im not saying top tier players can pick up low tier, it is true facts...
And you are very biased at this point, you say as if EVERYONE picks low tiers only for fun even though they are very competitive.
Saying " lol i beat you with X vs Y if both are mains is always acceptable lmao, its all about player skill. and the matches are not supposed to be exciting lol, you are supposed to win.
And you have NO IDEA on how many low tier players who enters big tournaments but never make it out of pools.

@ Vicegrip
Yes, i said that too. It is possible, but the reason why low tiers don't win nationals are because they are like " OMFG FOW BEAT TYRANT WITH NESSSSS" and then they settle down. They dont realize that character skill maybe matters for the crowd, but in fact character wont make you better than them if you lose.
Both ness and sonic have way to many options for a low tier character, you must have realized that ness have more viable attacks than say jigglypuff.
Also
More options => harder to master => always something to improve on => more skill, the more skill you have the more natural the character will come => easier to learn matchups and mindgame => better tournament results => high tiers doesnt settle with coming "as good as a mk" => improves even more
Etc.
Low tier players nearly always get stuck lol

leffen wrote at 3:40 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
ALSO, wait a week or two then ill rape your link with minee

Gardex wrote at 4:40 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
About that Ally Falcon thing. He has always been a good Falcon. He has just started to use him more.

Seiba wrote at 5:00 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Utsuho Reiuji wrote at 2:05 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Wait... ANY blog that puts Brawl in a competitive scene makes it look like a miserable little pile of excuses that contradict each other to no end.

EGAL_ADLER.893 wrote at 5:22 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
try ness.....

but i get what you mean..... some people say that their characters are extremely good or are a ton better with few better results, but it doesn't change the fact that the character won't be better than a lot of characters. Like although I main ness, i don't say he is extremely viable at all because of two facts: little approach and grab release gheys.... there are a couple of other points that drag him down a lot, but those two can destroy him.....

I see that some people who main higher tiers can easily pick up lower tiers (ie Ally with falcon)..... I haven't really seen many GREAT ness players who main high tiers other than maybe one..... whose name i can't remember.

Ness does take more skill or time to master than most other higher tier characters (putting aside ICs, Snake, and diddy). If you can perfectly place all of your pkt2s offstage without killing yourself within the first few times of playing him, you either have natural ness abilities or played lucas.... ness' pkt control is not easy to master. otherwise, quite a few of his other things are fairly easier.... pun somewhat intended.... his aerial spam is quick to learn, his pkfire spam is easy to master, pkt1 is simple, but a couple of other things take much more time.... Proper usage of PSI Magnet (It would take forever to explain....), dtilt tripping extremely consistently, yoyo shenanigans, PK Flash, safe implementation of pkfire (and also perfect aim...), using ground attacks efficiently, etc....

Ganon I picked up in a day, Kirby I picked up in a week or two, and ness took a month or greater.... I tried ICs but stopped because I found out quickly that being able to time everything properly and learn to desync really well would take WAAAAAY too long for me... diddy I looked into, but I don't know of banana weirdness..... snake... actually he seems straightforward now, but i don't wanna play him...... I like MGS, but his playstyle in SSBB doesn't make him look cool like MGS does...

/whatever i was saying..... which i don't

kole wrote at 5:37 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
Most low tier mains don't act like that, but the ones that do are ****ing *******s.

AfroTwist BananaPie wrote at 3:27 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
leffen wrote at 9:40 PM on Mar 9, 2010 :
ALSO, wait a week or two then ill rape your link with minee

Prepare to get lol'd at when I 3-stock you son.

Also. About the Falcon thing. I've considered Ally the best Falcon since forever lol. And I know I'm not the only.
So, he did absolutely not just "pick him up" like that and started raping >_>

Deva wrote at 5:03 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
The main point I noticed in your blog was the reasons some people play low tiers. I obviously cant speak for everyone else, but personally I do it for the challenge. I dont use it as a john of being at a disadvantage. By picking a low tier character I agree to the fact that I will be at a disadvantage and play by the rule that it will not impale my gameplay. In my mind I consider every matchup even and play it out as such. Deep in the back of my mind of course I realize im at a serious disadvantage but that's what makes it worthwhile, the challenge of overcoming something of that degree. At least that's what makes smash worthwhile for me. Not playing by the pre set notions of my character being low tier opens up the possibilities of what he's actually capable of at higher lvls of play.

L_Cancel wrote at 7:59 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
"Isnt it funny that there has been no cases where a good low tier player picks up a top tier and becomes pro within a short timespan? I cant honestly name a single person in brawl"

Well to be fair this isn't entirely true. There have been people who dropped a LT that became some of the top players in brawl. Judge, now a top Metaknight, was a Jiggz main when he first started attending tournies. MalcolmM, now probably one of the best if not the best wario on the EC of the US started as a sonic main. And since switching to wario has had some excellent tourney placings. Including 13th/197 at Pound 4.

However, I do agree with you that many Low tier users hold themselves back, by believing their losses are completely their character, rather than themselves. And because of this they don't grow as players. Of course it is unfair to generalize, and not everyone who uses a LT shares this mentality. A good example of a mentality that a LT user should have to have success in the tourney scene, is one similar to the one Deva posted above.

Those are some of my thoughts anyway.... lol

shadow1pj wrote at 8:39 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
my link is a god and i hardly use em

IsmaR wrote at 9:28 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
"Isnt it funny that there has been no low tier player who has had extreme reading skills?"

Hah.

leffen wrote at 11:30 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Lol wrong answer got raped by allisbrawl.
L_Cancel, I SAID, THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS.
And malcolm was afaik already good when he was sonic ( aka beating good players ).
Judge, WAS a LONG time ago. Im not saying they will never can be good if they have once mained a low tier *sigh*
There are people who started playing brawl after judge changed main and have excellent tournament placings.
@Deva that is def on the right track, however " Deep in the back of my mind of course I realize im at a serious disadvantage but that's what makes it worthwhile, the challenge of overcoming something of that degree." is what every single competitive low tier player thinks, and it often leads to wrong assumptions ( for example man i placed high, i have overcomed what no link has done before by placing as good as someone else !)" which makes their metagame stale off since ALL low tier mains get stuck ( 99% dont realize how much they get on others inexperience ) and since their goal is reached or almost reached they stop improving lols.
@ Issy. Name one.
Ally was just an example , i could say many more only in the swedish smash scene ( i have talked about this to many swedish pro smashers already )
@ EagleEye You dont understand the difference about "mastering " and "suceeding". Sorry
@Afro Lols bring it on, it will be recorded, and so will you cutting of your hair be!

leffen wrote at 11:34 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
One thing i hate about link mainers are that they think that because they have many retardedly useless or impractical ATs, that that makes them think Link has a very hard learning curve ( which he obv doesnt , esp compared to many other chars ). and one thing is that he doesnt have ANY good options.
His only legit option is to spam, zair and jab. He cant play offensive versus a good player, he will get raped. He cant cross over. he cant bait attacks. He cant stall. He cant outrange anyone except ganon because he is too slow. He cant get reliable kills versus a good player. Also, saying all good link mains have good DI ( and use this LOOK LINK NEEDS IT , everybody needs it and there are many who need it more, for example lucario ). when most have no idea how to SDI, no idea how to not Combo DI, no idea on when to NOT di up etc.
One easy example that popped up in my head was when Afro ALWAYS DIs combo throws the same way lols .
Also im not gonna practice versus ANY link in a link Ditto and then face afro in his most played matchup ( link ditto ).
lolz

Ayoub wrote at 12:24 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
A lot of Ness mains...

L_Cancel wrote at 12:40 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
I see. O:

Aggression wrote at 1:07 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Low tiers only win because the mk users never vs them. I lost to a lucas in a tourney once because I had forgotten his weird hitboxes. This is why I train with low tier masters occasionally.

Inui wrote at 1:12 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Low tiers are very easy to use due to being limited and simple.

Jun wrote at 1:31 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
low tiers just have less viable options, everything is a result of that

some-guy wrote at 1:58 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Inui wrote at 11:12 AM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Low tiers are very easy to use due to being limited and simple.

Wouldn't that mean they get predictable?
Learning how to use them at the right time and everything is way harder than having a ton of easy options (think mk, nair, dair, dsmash, sh*ttle loop, etc)

Not trying to be rude, but it honestly seems like you're just butthurt and hate low tiers for some dumb nonexistant reason...

typh wrote at 2:22 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
i played pokemon trainer and got ranked in socal within a month as soon as i picked up ice climbers

so

leffen wrote at 2:37 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
as i said, getting decently good is not impossible, but have you won any tourneys?
And a month is really long time man xD Also pokemon trainer is mid tier AND is 3 characters in one lol.
Some-guy stfu plx, u dont understand a crap :D

leffen wrote at 2:39 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
also, i hate that the new active blog system will require for this blog to have the moderators 1. find the actual blog lolz 2. Actually agree , even if its popular , provides nice discussion if its not as they think they will completely ignore it.

typh wrote at 2:49 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
oh

you're one of those

Zao wrote at 2:57 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
LOL @ low tiers ever winning nationals

HugS wrote at 3:01 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Idk if it is properly written enough for a mod to recommend it, but I don't mind what you're saying.

In Melee, I main Samus, and people always commented on how good I'd be if I mained a better character. But I always told them that if I mained a better character, I'd be far worse.

Samus suits me, and I am the best I can be through that character. Unless I found a higher tiered character that suits me, a step up on the tier list doesn't usually equate to better results.

@Typh, IMO your pkm trainer results were as stellar as your IC results, I could be wrong though.

Rich Brown wrote at 3:04 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
For me, I'm simply can't be good with anyone else in this game except olimar. But I saw a lot of potential in him, which is why I stuck with it. He was considered the middle of mid tier I think when I first picked him up, and now he's the middle of high tier, and has only gradually gone up since the first tier list.

All-Time Oregon Best Viviff wrote at 3:11 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Isnt it funny that there has been no low tier player who has had extreme reading skills? According to most low tier players logic this should be even easier since most options are not viable if you do not read your opponent.

I'm the best reader in the NW, doesn't make my characters suck less. Low-tier players never get recognition for almost anything they do because their characters are simply not good enough to win, or generally even place high at large tournaments. We'll get the occasional "Wow, for a _______ he's really good" or something like that, but our skills will never be recognized because we're not using a character that will ever be able to win a tournament. There isn't a doubt in my mind if I mastered Spam Knight like I've mastered Mario I'd be a top-rated player.

Masterdrenin wrote at 3:14 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Why don't you just use spam knight Viviff? Make some dough.

HugS wrote at 3:25 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :
Viviff wrote at 12:11 PM on Mar 10, 2010 :

There isn't a doubt in my mind if I mastered Spam Knight like I've mastered Mario I'd be a top-rated player.

LoL, there's plenty of doubt in my mind.

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