Marth's Match Ups (Updated 8-1-09) - Credit to Steel

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#1
7:17 AM Nov 6 2009 2009
Dannykat
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Marth's Match Ups (Updated 8-1-09)
So I decided to take the match up thread from SWF and post it on AIB for all to see. All credit goes to Steel for the thread!  I will update this thread with the original if changes are made, which can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736

Remember, the match up data is solely based and updated off  the discussion of the members on SWF.


Match-Ups !

Disadvantages

Meta Knight 35:65 Meta Knight

Summary:

K this match is gay, though debatably not as gay as the Snake matchdepending on the gayness of the Snake.. but nevertheless still epic amounts of gay, depending on how gay the meta knight is that you are playing.

SO WITH THAT SAID

If you play your standard aggro game you will get raped.. probably by about 3 moves. However, if you do have an offense going don't lose your resolve.. press the advantageous situation you are in.

If you can get a grab when MK is at 0% that's good, but don't fish for it too hard or you will take unnecessary damage. You can dthrow to fsmash for 25% or do the kadaj combo of fthrow to nair to dancing blade/fsmash (can be di'd i believe, dthrow to fsmash is the most reliable).

Mk's third ftilt and dtilt out range your entire repertoire besides your shield breaker, but that's hardly safe. Because if this you have
to rely on a turtling approach to the match. Attempt to keep him out with fairs, dtilts, and dancing blade his small openings/combo it off a tilt or fair. Last MK I played he was able to up b out of my down dancing blade 4 a few times so uh.. don't use it >_>

Pivot grabs > All of MK's dash approaches + tornado. Marth's pivot grab has insane range and can really frustrate a MK if he is too
predictable with his dash attacks/grabs. If it's not 0% you should probably release him and combo it to fair or dash attack, dolphin slash works too. Sometimes running up smash works as well because MK's don't know how to get away from it, so if you're willing to take the risk you can get an easy kill.

If he drills to recover (or even tornado) you can counter it (safer option) or dolphin slash right through it.

If he up b's he is very weak from below. Up air or sliding up smash can punish this well. If he up b's off stage and didn't sweet spot anything you can spike him if you position yourself right. MK probably screwed up pretty bad here, but capitalize if it happens.

Marth's Up air > MK's down air. Marth's aerial mobility > MK's aerial mobility. This means MK is very susceptible to being juggled by
Marth, take advantage when you get him above you.

Even though MK's dtilt out ranges yours you can still kind of zone with it, they're very similar in range and you can sometimes hit his hand lolz.

When you are in killing range you can simply jump over MK's fsmash and dsmash. Stay in the air around these percents with your fairs and you will make getting killed a very hard task. Good DI will also make you very hard to kill.

When recovering you should go SUPER low. I mean REALLLLLY low. Almost low enough that you suicide. MK normally doesn't expect this and once he sees you do it hell just fly back to the ledge. Jump, stall, up b and you have a good chance of recovering. Know that MK can predict your side b stall and let go of the ledge and dair gimp you. If you think he is going to chase you low before you have decided where to go then just jump over him and land safely on stage. It's a guessing game.

MK is light, killing him usually isn't TOO much of a problem. Second strong hit nair will kill very nicely in this match. If he is gliding
back to the stage some times a surprise bair from the ledge will kill him and he won't be able to react. Tipper fsmash and up tilt kill very early. Also if you shield his dsmash you can dsmash back.

You can up b out of MK's tornado every time, though sometimes he may bait this and just touch your shield with it and run away. If you KNOW MK's glide attack is going to not be spaced well you can up b as soon as it hits you, but be careful as it can be be deceptive.

Your dancing blade has transcendent priority. This means it can go right through MK's tornado without a problem. Through my experience SH Dancing blade > fair works well, or once you dancing blade buffering may take over and MK will just drill attack allowing for easy punishment.

Your JAB outranges MK's fair btw, along with a few other attacks. If you ever shield MK's dsmash immediately shield drop to dancing blade. Don't every try to punish his fsmash as he is probably baiting you.

If he dtilts you don't get stuck in your shield cus he will probably just dash grab if he sees that.

Also:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203056

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179458

King Dedede 40:60 Dedede

Summary:

Another very close match where Marth may be at a very slight disadvantage. Dedede has a huge grab range and if he manages to grab you it's usually at least a guaranteed 20-30 damage. His ftilt can shut down a grounded approach from you as it outranges all of your moves including shield breaker, fortunately it does not do very much damage and his minimal knockback. You also have the frame advantage if it hits you when he uses it at an unsafe range. His up tilt will kill you pretty early as well, though he doesn't have any sure set ups for this move. You must take extra care of your spacing here or else you will be punished hard. Dedede can also edge guard you fairly well.

Looking at Marth's advantages, he is a much faster attacker than Dedede and he can apply pressure to him well. He has much better aerial mobility and can short hop fair or nair over his ftilt to get inside. Nair will be used much more in this match since Dedede is so fat; when tipped this move will have some great knock back and is one of your safest kill moves. Also, at 0% you can chain fthrows on Dedede into an fsmash or DB, keep that in mind to put him in a bad spot early in stock. This will set you up for an edge guarding oppurtunity, and while you will probably not kill Dedede out here you can easily get some free damage in by jumping out there with fairs and bairs. When Dedede up b's you should also be ready to punish whether or not he cancels it. Up smash and up air when spaced will go right through his up b, keep this in mind to set up a juggle trap. If he cancels it and goes for the ledge try and grab on, he will fall right to his death. If you aren't fast enough set up your ledge spacing and do all that you can to keep him off stage. Keep him in that bad position for as long as possible.

Once you are inside Dedede's ftilt space yourself so that you can still outrange Dedede's grab. This is his blind spot and you can easily apply pressure with your sword in this area. For the most part Marth has to be offensive and give Dedede little room to breath. If you play a standard defensive game he will camp you all day long.

While Dedede will live much longer than Marth in most cases, Marth's ability to pressure him and limit Dedede's options allows you to even this match up.

Random stuff:

You can swat or PS his projectiles, gordo you better just shield or get out of the way of that thing, will kill you very early.

Dtilt trap works very well when inside his ftilt, he doesn't have very good options to deal with it. Once he rolls or spot dodges just punish with DB.

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186738

Snake 40:60 Snake

Summary:

This is a very close match up (unless Snake plays realllllly gay, which is why i moved this to 40 60). Snake is a very fast attacker on the ground and controls the stage with his explosives and tilts. You must play extra smart in this match to not fall into any of his traps,
explosives etc.

Approaching Snake can be a problem, however you must or he can just throw **** at you. If he is nade tossing see if you can use them against him. If it isn't cooked for very long grab the nade and either glide toss that thing > whatever you wish, or run up to him with your shield and have it blow up in his face.

Once you are inside his nades you must be patient and pick your spots; rush in with an aerial and chances are you will eat an ftilt to the face. Marth's dtilt outranges everything Snake has on the ground except for the second hit of his ftilt, so keep that in mind. If his ftilt hits your shield you have a few options to punish him. You can DS right out or simply shield drop to dancing blade. Your goal at this point is to get inside those tilts and proceed to put on the hurt.

Get Snake in the air. Snake SUCKS in the air while Marth thrives. This is where your juggle traps come into play and can really rack up the damage on Snake. If you do it right he will have a real hard time getting back on his feet, if he ever does. You want to do SHFF up airs underneath him. If he will air dodge past those up smash him as he comes down, that hit box is so messed up it will probably be able to hit Snake just as he comes out of his AD. You can also just grab him and up throw again.. or even dancing blade up version, what ever you do you effectively reset the situation.

Marth can also harass Snake's recovery big time. You will most likely be able to get in a few aerials while he is dangling from his cypher. Once he successfully recovers high you can just reset your juggle trap, he's in the perfect position for it. Do keep in mind Snake can reverse b his grenades and C4, so you may have to do a little chasing if the Snake is good at it.

Some final notes... if you have Snake on the ledge you should be able to trap him there pretty effectively. He doesn't have very good options when getting back up. (but know he can do the exact same thing to you, be smart and don't "jump into the rape")

Snake has a good grab game so don't be predictable with your wake ups.

His up tilt will kill you pretty early.

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181156

Very Slight Disadvantages


Even

ROB 50:50 Even

Summary:

Probably one of the most even match ups in the game, ROB has tilts that rival yours in range and can somewhat camp you with his laser and gyro. If you block the gyro it will just disappear and he can charge up another one, see if you can pick it up and glide toss it for a way for you to get inside.

This is another match where Marth has to rely on more of an offensive game to avoid ROB's camping. He will try and keep you out with his tilts that he can angle up to also cover any aerial approach. If you block a tilt be sure to punish with DB or up b.

ROB doesn't have many good options once you have your zoning set up, keep pressuring him with your sword once up close. If he spot dodges you can definitely expect a down smash to follow it up. If you are suffering from lag make sure you are ready to smash DI upwards to get out of it. If he dsmashes your shield quickly up b to hit him back out. Marth's dancing blade will wreck his dodging if he tries to use it often.

Both characters can do some nasty things when edge guarding each other. He can do a string of fairs and can also dair you if you aren't careful. Up b through them to get back on quickly as possible or time an air dodge correctly. You can also get in some free damage usually with your aerials as well, he will often end up recovering high so you can set up a juggle trap if this happens. Landing a dair on him is also a possibility.

Other stuff:

Ledge guarding him is tougher than other characters. He has better options with a good ledge attack range.

His smashes don't have too much cool down time but they also don't kill all that well either.

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181823

Donkey Kong 50:50 Even

Summary:

DK's power and range even this match up, though I personally feel Marth may have a slight advantage. This is yet another match where you must focus on getting inside his tilts and then give him ZERO room to breath. You must stay on him or you may give him enough space to zone you again (usually with ftilts, dtilts, and maybe his down b).

If you block something from DK, you should be able to punish it unless he is retreating a bair. If DK jumps at you with his back towards you it is pretty easy to see what is coming, the bair will beat your fair so you should probably just counter; don't be too predictable with it though.

Marth outclasses DK in terms of edge guarding, his recovery is pretty one-dimensional and you can counter his up b every time... you can also attempt to dair him to put him out of his misery.

DK will be playing a keep away game while your goal is to limit these options and aggro him pretty hard. His fsmash will kill you very early, if you miss an up b you are pretty much screwed, so be careful.

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5347904

Wolf 50:50 Even

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5271159

Marth 50/50 Mirror Match

Summary:

The dreaded Marth ditto. A very awkward match up. You can't rely on your normal range advantage because your opponent has the same range and tools as you (obviously). You also can't rely on your aerials as much either.

It is best recommended to rely more on your grounded approaches. If you approach with fairs you can just eat an fsmash or ftilt to the face.

Just because you can't aerial as much doesn't mean you are very limited. Marth still has a great ground game to dominate with. If you
know your character then you should know what works and what doesn't in a Marth ditto. Keep in mind you can take advantage of juggling Marth. You can take advantage of Marth's average recovery. Speaking of recovery, edge guarding has about a 50/50 shot of you successfully gimping your opponent.. or you will just gimp yourself. Be careful and don't kill yourself when attempting the edge guard.

Grabs to put your ditto in bad positions are great. Specifically off the stage or up in the air. Also do NOT rely on dthrow > fsmash.
That doesn't work. The opponent can either DI out or just hit you in the face with a reverse up B. I've found fthrow to stutter step fsmash works much better at 0%.

May add more to this later, but just hope you win in the midst of all the gheyness in this match up.

Slight Advantages

Ice Climbers 55:45 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239568

Falco 60:40 Marth

Summary:

One of the true advantages Marth has over a current top tier character; Falco's normal gameplay is simply not as effective vs Marth. Falco's chain grab which can be used against he majority of the cast is nullified by Marth's up b. Keep in mind that Falco can bait the up b and punish you after you miss.. don't be predictable.

Falco's lasers are quite honestly not much of a problem at all for Marth. Marth has the speed and aerial mobility to get past these
lasers. Once he is in he will be able to deal double if not more damage than what Falco put on him attempting to camp. SHDL.. dash under the first laser which should go over you and try to power shield the one underneath. You will quickly close the distance and Falco and be able to apply pressure with your sword. Know that in this match Falco may rely more on a simple SHL to space himself a little easier.

Once you are too close for him to safely spam lasers he may try to hit you with his reflector to continue his keep away game. If you block it, it has plenty of cooldown time for you to punish with DB. If the Falco knows the match up he will try and stay away constantly, if you are getting past his reflector expect him to try and phantasm to reset his spacing and stage control.

Falco has no good options to deal with your zoning. All of your pokes outrange his. Keep in mind his fsmash will beat a fair approach, but he would have to predict that to get it off in time. Because falco fails at the close range game vs Marth he will probably rely on camping in this match up. Thankfully, Marth has the mobility to easily close the distance and continue to lay the hurt on Falco.

Marth should be able to kill Falco earlier and has a better edge guarding game than Falco. You can easily gimp his up b with a simple
ledge hog. If he finds his way onto the ledge you need to space yourself properly. Try and position yourself so that you can punish a
regular get up but also be able to cover a phantasm get up. You can hit the phantasm with your sword or just shield it and punish the landing lag.

Copy pasted from EL's analysis:

Marth's advantages

- Heavier

- More range overall

- Greater knockback

- Slightly harder to gimp

- Has good damaging combos at low percents

- Has a death combo at low percents as well

(my edit: this is fthrow > fthrow> dair > edge hog for those who do not know)

- Faster running speed and greater mobility overall



Falco's advantages

- Camping tactics with lasers and shine

- Evasive tactics with Phantasm

- Possible CG (Can be escaped with up b)

- Possible Death combo ( Again, it can be escaped with up b)

- Good damaging combo at lower percents off of grab. ( Dash attack cancelled u-smash)

- Good Roll

- Good spot-dodge

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183545

Mr. Game and Watch 60:40 Marth

Summary:

This match may even be 65:35, either way it is probably Marth's best match up against a top tier character.

I'll start off by saying a spaced dtilt will destroy GW's ground game completely. He seriously can not do much except try and escape through a jump or up b (if he is above you 9 times out of 10 he will dair, you can counter or up b out of shield). His roll is ridiculously slow which makes it even easier to hit with a DB.

GW telegraphs a lot. When you see him SH towards you backwards you know he can only have so many options, bair being the main one. For this reason counter is highly recommended in this match, but like everything that can get predicted and punished. Another option for his turtle is to simply shield it and up b, I believe an up b out of shield will hit even the perfectly spaced turtle, but I have to test this. And as always ftilt and fsmash destroy short hop approaches.

GW's smashes are ridiculous and will kill you at a relatively low percentage.. He has a plethora of kill moves and set ups through his d
throw (be sure you know how to tech this). The problem however, is he has a hard time landing a kill move on Marth. Marth outranges all of them and would have to mess up pretty bad to get hit by one.

You outrange and outspeed GW. You have a better pressure game when you have him on the defensive. You can retaliate against plenty of his normal offensive options better than the entire cast pretty much.

Other stuff:

He has a great recovery, probably not very gimpable.

GW has a pretty good damage output.

Kill moves while hard to land, are safe on block. Watch out for iasa frames on a lot of his attacks especially his dtilt.

GW may try and stall you with chef. Your sword can cut through all the projectiles.

Discussion:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188192

Diddy Kong 60:40 Marth

Summary:

Diddy Kong would be destroyed by Marth if he didn't have his bananas. You outrange his tilts and his smashes with your tilts.

This match is all about control. If Diddy has two bananas on stage and has you in a defensive position you are in trouble. You want to stay on him and not let him get much room to work with his nanners.

If you manage to pick up a nana know that you have a very good glide toss. Use the nanas against Diddy.

As complex as this match up is at first look, your main game plan is to simply prevent him from maintaining control with the nanas. Keep the tip of your sword in his face and don't give him too much room to set up anything.

Stuff:

if you know a dash attack is coming to pick up a nana, you can dtilt or just counter

don't be stupid and get caught in a nana lock by rolling right into it, also be aware if you roll the other way Diddy may be ready with a
smash. Be smart

His recovery is decent

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189473

Bowser 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191093

Peach 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191608

Toon Link 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191905

Lucario 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192763

Zelda 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5383437

Sheik 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195174

Zero Suit Samus 55:45 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8002277

Sonic 60:40 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240126

Kirby 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196139

Olimar 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5496150

Link 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5506627

Pit 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5210924

Fox 60:40 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193234

Wario 60:40 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238943


Advantages

Pikachu 65:35 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196247

Yoshi 65:35 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5450021

Samus 65:35 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197073

Mario 65:35 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5481233

Ike 65:35 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5489035

Pokemon Trainer 65:35 Marth

75:25 Marth

65:35 Marth

60:40 Marth


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198012


Large Advantages

Lucas 70:30 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5527609

Luigi 70:30 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5484253

Jigglypuff 70:30 Marth

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5504179

Ness 70:30 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198180


Rape Advantages

Captain Falcon 75:25 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198446

Ganondorf 80:20 Marth

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5515504[url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5515504][/url]
#2
7:33 AM Nov 6 2009 2009
Soren9
Best on My Block
Joined: Apr 2009
Soren9 is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.Soren9 impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Soren9 helped a member with a problem.

WE LOVE U DANNY can we pin this (note i don't know if this is yet i looked at it from te character deal
#3
8:48 AM Nov 9 2009 2009
Ralf
Shark
Joined: Aug 2008
Ralf is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.

Nicely put together. Marth has great match ups idk why east coast doesnt have more marth players
#4
10:44 AM Nov 12 2009 2009
Jester Kirby
Groupie
Joined: Apr 2008
Jester Kirby rooted for the $208,097,414 New York Yankees 2009 championship team.Jester Kirby is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.Jester Kirby did something funny.Jester Kirby helped a member with a problem.

Why arnt there more Marths just in general is my question. Before Mikehaze I hadn't really heard of any good ones.
By Firebomb, thanks!
#5
4:34 PM Nov 12 2009 2009
Player-3
Ladder Pro
Joined: Nov 2008

because NEO doesnt like to get recorded, pierce forgets, kadaj is good but noone really hears of him playing marth


NL doesnt play marth, noone pays attention to Dr PeePee (NC), Ive been playing captain falcon too much, danny plays wifi

etc

end of this month im going to go all marth (if i even enter brawl) so expect a top 8 lol
#6
12:49 AM Nov 19 2009 2009
Kev2K
The Very Best
Joined: Apr 2009
Kev2K is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.Kev2K did something funny.

lol no wifi tournies P3 icon_razz
#7
10:01 AM Nov 22 2009 2009
Saki-
Spread the Love
Joined: May 2008
Saki- rooted for the $208,097,414 New York Yankees 2009 championship team.

Quote (originally posted by Jester Kirby):
Why arnt there more Marths just in general is my question. Before Mikehaze I hadn't really heard of any good ones.


It's what Player 3 said, and many Marths are just not popular, I guess there needs to be a ton at the next national tourney or something.
#8
10:42 AM Nov 22 2009 2009
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

DK > Marth. Marth doesn't want to be in close either because he may get grabbed. Not worth the risk. If you use dancing blade really close, he'll grab you too. Also you can only counter his up B once, then he can jump over.

Only good thing about Marth in this matchup is juggling. He can be juggled as well.

The only difference is DK doesn't need to juggle while Marth does.
#9
4:00 PM Nov 22 2009 2009
Eden
War is Over
Joined: Aug 2008
Eden rooted for the $208,097,414 New York Yankees 2009 championship team.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
DK > Marth. Marth doesn't want to be in close either because he may get grabbed. Not worth the risk. If you use dancing blade really close, he'll grab you too. Also you can only counter his up B once, then he can jump over.

Only good thing about Marth in this matchup is juggling. He can be juggled as well.

The only difference is DK doesn't need to juggle while Marth does.


- Marth thats "close" should obviously be spacing his fairs better.
- You getting grabbed is pretty bad btw.
- Spaced db1 on shield won't get grabbed. if I continue it sure but considering marth uses db for punishment the majority of the time...
- What happens if I hit you out of your jump? Now it's back to up b.

Also this match up chart is severly outdated.
#10
4:24 PM Nov 22 2009 2009
ZK45
Joined: Mar 2009

Everytime someone says DK beats Marth, God kills a kitten. I'm typing up why twice, so, Dannykat, do the DK MU next and darknid come back in a week or wheanever we get the next one up and I'll have my response then. Actually, if you'll take suggestions Danny, I think we should discuss in order:
DK
DDD
Diddy
Pika
other people

@DW_ What specifically do you think on here is outdated? The strategies are dead on for the most part. The only real changes are vs snake is even, DDD is even or 45:55 it's really tough to call that one IMO. MK is 60:40 not 65:35, DK is 55:45 us, Diddy is 55:45, pikachu is 60-40 and that's it.
#11
12:57 AM Nov 23 2009 2009
Saki-
Spread the Love
Joined: May 2008
Saki- rooted for the $208,097,414 New York Yankees 2009 championship team.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
DK > Marth. Marth doesn't want to be in close either because he may get grabbed. Not worth the risk. If you use dancing blade really close, he'll grab you too. Also you can only counter his up B once, then he can jump over.

Only good thing about Marth in this matchup is juggling. He can be juggled as well.

The only difference is DK doesn't need to juggle while Marth does.


Hmm, ok this is what I say
Dk = Marth

"Marth doesn't want to be in close either because he may get grabbed. Not worth the risk."
Correct, which is why spacing is key, don't let it get too predictable either.

"If you use dacing blade really close, he'll grab you too."
You're probably using it too close or just using it on his shield hoping he'd drop it. :l
and regarding the DB, to use it best in this match, end it by using the High finish.

"Also you can only counter his up B Once, then he can jump over"
Why bother using counter if you could just use fair? Or spike it even? If he's using it on stage that just screams Dolphin Slash.

But yea juggling is uber important in this matchup, and without DK experience it probably isn't going to be in your favor regardless. Just don't keep getting hit by easy powershielded moves, and don't let Dk get you in the air and juggle you, only Marth should be juggling D:<
#12
9:07 AM Nov 25 2009 2009
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Quote (originally posted by Kola):
Hmm, ok this is what I say
Dk = Marth

"Marth doesn't want to be in close either because he may get grabbed. Not worth the risk."
Correct, which is why spacing is key, don't let it get too predictable either.


Yeah that's dandy except DK's capacity for spacing is superior to Marth's, meaning Marth has to be doing something to close the gap and when he does he may well get too close and take 20-30% damage from a grab.

Quote (originally posted by Kola):
"If you use dacing blade really close, he'll grab you too."
You're probably using it too close or just using it on his shield hoping he'd drop it. :l
and regarding the DB, to use it best in this match, end it by using the High finish.


The reason I said that is because people constantly bring up DK's attack speed as a reason why DK is bad up close, but Marth has the same problem..DB comes out at the same speed as DK's jab but is less safe. People mention DB as something Marth can do up close, so I made that statement preemptively.

Quote (originally posted by Kola):
"Also you can only counter his up B Once, then he can jump over"
Why bother using counter if you could just use fair? Or spike it even? If he's using it on stage that just screams Dolphin Slash.


Fair is the same way, DK can simply jump over. I said that because the OP said you can "counter his recovery over and over" when you can only counter it once.

Quote (originally posted by Kola):

But yea juggling is uber important in this matchup, and without DK experience it probably isn't going to be in your favor regardless. Just don't keep getting hit by easy powershielded moves, and don't let Dk get you in the air and juggle you, only Marth should be juggling D:<


This is why I think DK wins. Marth and DK are both at advantageous positions while juggling each other, however, DK is at an advantageous position when both characters are fighting side by side with spaced moves or even up close. He's also got the upper hand offstage. Factor in the fact that he is the hardest char in the game to kill and the fact that he's got the best KO power in high tier(if not the entire game), and superior mobility, I find it hard to believe that you can make a case for Marth beating DK.

Quote (originally posted by DW_):

- Marth thats "close" should obviously be spacing his fairs better.


Yet his capacity for spacing is inferior, so he probably won't be spacing anything better.

Quote (originally posted by DW_):
- You getting grabbed is pretty bad btw.


At 0% maybe. Plus I can afford to lose 50% damage and we're still even. Weight and KO power.

Quote (originally posted by DW_):
- Spaced db1 on shield won't get grabbed. if I continue it sure but considering marth uses db for punishment the majority of the time...


Go ahead, you'll just eat two dtilts on your shield and end up right at DK's favorite range anyway.

Quote (originally posted by DW_):
- What happens if I hit you out of your jump? Now it's back to up b.


What happens if I spike you out of your hit? You lose. Welcome to Super Theory Bros. Craft.

Snake could never get back to the stage if it were that easy.
http://www.formspring.me/darknid

#13
11:45 AM Nov 25 2009 2009
ZK45
Joined: Mar 2009

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Yeah that's dandy except DK's capacity for spacing is superior to Marth's, meaning Marth has to be doing something to close the gap and when he does he may well get too close and take 20-30% damage from a grab

DK can't shieldgrab Marth... we can shieldgrab him. Our sword is disjointed, DK's arms.... aren't, lol. So, you can try to grab me, but, when you miss you're taking 17+ damage at least. Also, I severely doubt Marth would take that much from a grab...

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
The reason I said that is because people constantly bring up DK's attack speed as a reason why DK is bad up close, but Marth has the same problem..DB comes out at the same speed as DK's jab but is less safe. People mention DB as something Marth can do up close, so I made that statement preemptively.

They kind of have the same problem, but, you're missing a big point. We have noticably more priority and we are disjointed. 

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Fair is the same way, DK can simply jump over. I said that because the OP said you can "counter his recovery over and over" when you can only counter it once.

Why on earth would you ever put yourself over Marth on purpose? Seriously? Our fair is fast... it'll end and we can uair/utilt/usmash/grab and uthrow and then DK will get raped trying to come down.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
This is why I think DK wins. Marth and DK are both at advantageous positions while juggling each other, however, DK is at an advantageous position when both characters are fighting side by side with spaced moves or even up close. He's also got the upper hand offstage. Factor in the fact that he is the hardest char in the game to kill and the fact that he's got the best KO power in high tier(if not the entire game), and superior mobility, I find it hard to believe that you can make a case for Marth beating DK.

DK can't juggle Marth well, at all. If marth is getting juggled by DK he's doing something very very wrong. Max range DK may have the advantage, but even then theoretically, we can just do the ZMT, which is just attacking while not attacking, and since we're disjointed, and DK isn't, his hurtboxes (since his arms aren't disjointed) will run into our sword's hitboxes (which are disjointed) and we come out ahead. But, I'll go ahead and say spaced out, and maybe up close DK does have the advantage. Off the stage, DK does NOT have the advantage, at all. DK has bair and that's it. Not to mention, if we recover first, while he's offstage, he's taking 40-50 damage at least. Assuming he doesn't get spiked/footstooled out of his upB. While you do have slightly more aerial mobility than us, we can cover ourselves in the air infinitely better than you can.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Yet his capacity for spacing is inferior, so he probably won't be spacing anything better.

Spacing is a player attribute, not a character

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
At 0% maybe. Plus I can afford to lose 50% damage and we're still even. Weight and KO power
 
Marth has amazing throws. High level marth will be getting about 20% off a throw, esp. against someone as big as DK.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Go ahead, you'll just eat two dtilts on your shield and end up right at DK's favorite range anyway.

How are you dtilting our shield w/ us shieldgrabbing it exactly? Again, you're not disjointed.

I was going to write this up later, but, w/e here it is. *Note, some of this I may have just said/other people have said. I don't care, lol.* 
 
It's obvious that DK wins in range, KO power, and living percentage, fine. The main difference is speed, priority, fast punishing moves, pokes, and the ability to recover both on and off stage. Marth wins every one of those. To apply pressure DK has... bair, and bair, and.... bair. His bair leaves him quite open considering how fast Marth is, how fast his attacks are, and how high priority they are. Not to mention that Marth shouldn't be fairing first anyways. Espically with his back turned. Fair should be a reaction to DK's bair, and you punish it. DK doesn't have that same luxury because that's his ONLY pressure tool. They're anti-air, ftilt is impractical really due to lag and his smashes, other than dsmash, are just slow and if you get hit by them, unless he reads a roll/spotdodge/tech chase, go jump off the stage until the game is over and try again next game. When Marth gets DK in the air, he is screwed. He has a harder time getting down vs Marth than Snake and DDD, which is just sad. If DK gets launched up, you're taking a good bit of damage on your way down. In fact, you're only "safe" way down is to go for the ledge, at which point, Marth kinda rapes when his opponent is on the ledge. Otherwise you have no way to protect yourself on your way down. Bair is just a little too slow and get PSed into uair/usmash/utilt, air dodge gets regrabbed and you get uthrown again, and fair, nair, and side B won't help at all, in any way. And, not that this really matters that much, but, his recovery yells "Spike me please!" DK really relies on attacking without attacking (why doesn't ZMT play DK again, lol) and waiting for you to run into his attacks. He has 5 attacks that he can directly attack his opponent with. Other than that, they're all punishers, and unless Marth is using punishable attacks, Marth just completely outclasses DK in this regard. DK is good, and his range and weight are enough so that Marth doesn't destroy DK, but, it's definitely not enough to keep it from being better for DK than even. 

People look at a move and say wow, it's awesome (DK's dtilt/ftilt/bair) without actually looking at it's properties. The best example is DDD. His bair rapes, yeah. But, it leaves his entire underside open, and he has no aerial mobility to move the hitbox around. So yeah, it's a good move, but, it's not as practical as other stuff. DK's anti-air, his ftilt is good, but it's laggy making it not as good vs someone as fast/ranged as Marth. His bair is excellent, but, our fair beats it because we're disjointed and it's not, on top of the fact it's slow enough to get under you and hit you. DK's dtilt, I will admit is pretty awesome though, lol. Really all we can do is predict it and space ourselves so we dtilt his arm instead of body or shieldgrab it.
#14
10:35 AM Nov 29 2009 2009
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
DK can't shieldgrab Marth... we can shieldgrab him. Our sword is disjointed, DK's arms.... aren't, lol. So, you can try to grab me, but, when you miss you're taking 17+ damage at least. Also, I severely doubt Marth would take that much from a grab...


Uh..Yes, he can. DK has like the 3rd best non-tether grab range in the game. You can't guarantee perfect spacing. Unless you hit a tipper causing shield pressure, you can be grabbed. meanwhile, DK has a lot more range than you and you have less grab range, yet you're better off grabbing him? I'll take 17+ at 0% maybe. Beyond that it'll be like 4%, lmao. You'll take more.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
They kind of have the same problem, but, you're missing a big point. We have noticably more priority and we are disjointed.


Doesn't really save you.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Why on earth would you ever put yourself over Marth on purpose? Seriously? Our fair is fast... it'll end and we can uair/utilt/usmash/grab and uthrow and then DK will get raped trying to come down.


Over Marth? DK can jump over the stage, passing the ledge.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
DK can't juggle Marth well, at all. If marth is getting juggled by DK he's doing something very very wrong. Max range DK may have the advantage, but even then theoretically, we can just do the ZMT, which is just attacking while not attacking, and since we're disjointed, and DK isn't, his hurtboxes (since his arms aren't disjointed) will run into our sword's hitboxes (which are disjointed) and we come out ahead. But, I'll go ahead and say spaced out, and maybe up close DK does have the advantage. Off the stage, DK does NOT have the advantage, at all. DK has bair and that's it. Not to mention, if we recover first, while he's offstage, he's taking 40-50 damage at least. Assuming he doesn't get spiked/footstooled out of his upB. While you do have slightly more aerial mobility than us, we can cover ourselves in the air infinitely better than you can.


Uh..lmao. DK juggles Marth pretty easily. Marth has a blindspot much like DK and ROB, making him easy to juggle. By the way, DK's bair beats your fair if they are executed at the same time. You're forgetting that you are not in control of zoning, DK is because he has superior mobility and range. You do not space using dashes, which renders your speed useless in this regard.

DK doesn't have the advantage offstage? Well it depends who's recovering. DK has bair and up B..haha up B. Invincibility and instant gimps on Marth. DK can use the cheesegrinder pretty well on Marth. By the way, please try to footstool me. You'll be stage spiked or gimped by DK's up B. What do you have, btw? Fair? Dair? DK has a dair too.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Spacing is a player attribute, not a character

Marth has amazing throws. High level marth will be getting about 20% off a throw, esp. against someone as big as DK.

How are you dtilting our shield w/ us shieldgrabbing it exactly? Again, you're not disjointed.

I was going to write this up later, but, w/e here it is. *Note, some of this I may have just said/other people have said. I don't care, lol.*


A player cannot alter the spacing capacity of his character. DK has more.

Marth's throws are ****. Horrible. They set things up at 0% and after that's done they deal really bad damage. You will get 20% off of a throw ONE TIME. After DK has taken a bit of damage, your throws are a non threat.

Oh, please try to shieldgrab. You'll eat the next dtilt. Get some experience, please.

  
Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
It's obvious that DK wins in range, KO power, and living percentage, fine. The main difference is speed, priority, fast punishing moves, pokes, and the ability to recover both on and off stage. Marth wins every one of those. To apply pressure DK has... bair, and bair, and.... bair. His bair leaves him quite open considering how fast Marth is, how fast his attacks are, and how high priority they are. Not to mention that Marth shouldn't be fairing first anyways. Espically with his back turned. Fair should be a reaction to DK's bair, and you punish it. DK doesn't have that same luxury because that's his ONLY pressure tool. They're anti-air, ftilt is impractical really due to lag and his smashes, other than dsmash, are just slow and if you get hit by them, unless he reads a roll/spotdodge/tech chase, go jump off the stage until the game is over and try again next game. When Marth gets DK in the air, he is screwed. He has a harder time getting down vs Marth than Snake and DDD, which is just sad. If DK gets launched up, you're taking a good bit of damage on your way down. In fact, you're only "safe" way down is to go for the ledge, at which point, Marth kinda rapes when his opponent is on the ledge. Otherwise you have no way to protect yourself on your way down. Bair is just a little too slow and get PSed into uair/usmash/utilt, air dodge gets regrabbed and you get uthrown again, and fair, nair, and side B won't help at all, in any way. And, not that this really matters that much, but, his recovery yells "Spike me please!" DK really relies on attacking without attacking (why doesn't ZMT play DK again, lol) and waiting for you to run into his attacks. He has 5 attacks that he can directly attack his opponent with. Other than that, they're all punishers, and unless Marth is using punishable attacks, Marth just completely outclasses DK in this regard. DK is good, and his range and weight are enough so that Marth doesn't destroy DK, but, it's definitely not enough to keep it from being better for DK than even.  


DK has more speed and bair doesn't leave him any more open than Marth's fair leaves him. It has a lot more range and the speed is identical. Have you ever played a good DK? Can you draw me a map of how DK has a worse time than Snake and D3 even though his aerial speed is top of A tier and D3's is the worst in the game? Draw me a picture. I could say the exact same thing about Marth. By the way, DK's punch is a better punishing tool than anything Marth has, it also punishes in the air and on the ground. Learn your ****. Marth gets juggled just as easily as DK.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
People look at a move and say wow, it's awesome (DK's dtilt/ftilt/bair) without actually looking at it's properties. The best example is DDD. His bair rapes, yeah. But, it leaves his entire underside open, and he has no aerial mobility to move the hitbox around. So yeah, it's a good move, but, it's not as practical as other stuff. DK's anti-air, his ftilt is good, but it's laggy making it not as good vs someone as fast/ranged as Marth. His bair is excellent, but, our fair beats it because we're disjointed and it's not, on top of the fact it's slow enough to get under you and hit you. DK's dtilt, I will admit is pretty awesome though, lol. Really all we can do is predict it and space ourselves so we dtilt his arm instead of body or shieldgrab it.


Yeah..Snake's utilt rapes too, but if you look closely, his backside is wide open! holy ****! snake's utilt sucks now.

Yeah, the problem with this is that you don't use these moves in situations where they won't win. DK's ftilt is safer than Marth's, by the way. Your fair also doesn't beat it unless it's right after the hitbox disappears. It's also nearly identical in speed to your fair, meaning I could say the same thing about yours. DK's dtilt also beats yours, and you won't space it. Not against a good DK. You'd have to be at a long distance when he released it, in which case..he won't.
http://www.formspring.me/darknid

Last edited by Darknid, 11:14 AM on Nov 30, 2009
#15
2:19 PM Nov 30 2009 2009
ZK45
Joined: Mar 2009

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Uh..Yes, he can. DK has like the 3rd best non-tether grab range in the game. You can't guarantee perfect spacing. Unless you hit a tipper causing shield pressure, you can be grabbed. meanwhile, DK has a lot more range than you and you have less grab range, yet you're better off grabbing him? I'll take 17+ at 0% maybe. Beyond that it'll be like 4%, lmao. You'll take more.

Let me rephrase, DK can't shieldgrab us while we're attacking in the air. Our aerial mobility lets us get far enough out of his range fast enough that unless we really mess up our spacing, he can't grab us. Grounded, I'll admit it's a lot easier, but if we're spacing well, you can't do it except from a PS. Even DDD, the longest non-tether grab range in the game can't shieldgrab our dtilt if tippered except from a PS.
 
Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Doesn't really save you.

Not completely, true. But, enough to avoid grabs and to make DK have to be incredibly careful w/ his attacks. If we walk/float out of your range, just barely and swing our sword, it'll hit you because you're arm will be sticking out, and it's not disjointed. No, it's not enough to flat out say "We win cuz we can aim where you arm is going to be OLOLOLOL" but, it's still an important thing to point out. The fact that we're disjointed, and DK isn't does matter.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Over Marth? DK can jump over the stage, passing the ledge.

Sorry, I misread this the first time. I thought you meant jumping over Marth's fair onstage. I was very, very confused. You're right, that, as long as DK has his second jump, it is very difficult, if not near impossible to constantly counter his recovery. That's why I prefer to get on the stage fast or on the ledge and watch and react from there.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Uh..lmao. DK juggles Marth pretty easily. Marth has a blindspot much like DK and ROB, making him easy to juggle. By the way, DK's bair beats your fair if they are executed at the same time. You're forgetting that you are not in control of zoning, DK is because he has superior mobility and range. You do not space using dashes, which renders your speed useless in this regard.

Yes, Marth does have that blind spot underneath him, DK doesn't have the tools to juggle Marth though when we have enough to help us get down. (Comparatively, not alone you don't have enough tools.) We can DB stall and SB bounce to make it hard to predict when/where we're coming down, and the only way you're juggling us is by predicting our landing and grabbing/uthrowing us again or MAYBE utilt as a mix-up. Don't get me wrong, you have to tools to do it, and probably can juggle most characters very well, but, I just don't see Marth being juggled. Also, I know DK's bair beats our fair when done simultaneously, that's why Marth shouldn't fair first when DK's back is turned. Nair is a better choice there. But, when you're back isn't turned, or if we fair on reaction, fair wins. You can say it's a guessing game, and it would be, if bair wasn't DK's only pressure move he can safely, and realistically apply.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
DK doesn't have the advantage offstage? Well it depends who's recovering. DK has bair and up B..haha up B. Invincibility and instant gimps on Marth. DK can use the cheesegrinder pretty well on Marth. By the way, please try to footstool me. You'll be stage spiked or gimped by DK's up B. What do you have, btw? Fair? Dair? DK has a dair too.

Yes, it is true it depends on who's recovering, obviously the one who is recovering is going to be at the disadvantage (unless you're metaknight) but, what DK can do to us while we're offstage, compared to what we can do to DK, while close, Marth wins that one. Also, we have fair, bair, nair, counter, DB1 and maybe SB but that one is risky. Dair is bad except for spiking easy recoveries (DK, Snake, Bowser, DDD, ROB, the spacies' up Bs, Diddy's barrels if they have to recover straight up instead of at an angle which they want to do) Also, just because you're using DK's upB doesn't make it different from a different upB. And, I've footstooled and spiked other DK's upBs before.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
A player cannot alter the spacing capacity of his character. DK has more.

True, and it would matter a lot more (not saying it doesn't matter) if you were disjointed/had moves you could safely apply directly on Marth other than fair.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Marth's throws are ****. Horrible. They set things up at 0% and after that's done they deal really bad damage. You will get 20% off of a throw ONE TIME. After DK has taken a bit of damage, your throws are a non threat.

Ok, until now, I'll admit you've been right for the most part. This is just wrong. Marth's throws always set up for something. That's like saying MK's dthrow doesn't set up for stuff, when everyone knows it's an excellent set-up. Marth's throws are the same way. No, they don't do much damage, but they put you in a bad position and Marth in an excellent one. One where Marth has almost all his options, and his opponent has very few. His fthrow/dthrow are excellent frame traps (and if you expect one and DI for that one and the other happens you usually eat an usmash. But, that doesn't matter right now as that is a player aspect, and not a character one.) Then, his uthrow sets up for juggles well. 

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Oh, please try to shieldgrab. You'll eat the next dtilt. Get some experience, please.

If Marth shieldgrabs as soon as he sees the attack come out (esp. the 2nd one because we can grab even faster there because it's easily predicted) you get shieldgrabbed. I did it last wednesday against a DK I was playing. Granted, while it looked like, I can't guarantee it was perfect spacing, so, maybe not. Also, the "get experience" line doesn't have place in a MU discussion unless I'm a top playe, which I'm not, and am playing against a top player. Although, I will say that, even though last Wednesday was my first time playing a good DK, and he is a better player than I am, I still kept it close to even (last stock 130+ percent.) But again, that doesn't matter.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
DK has more speed and bair doesn't leave him any more open than Marth's fair leaves him. It has a lot more range and the speed is identical. Have you ever played a good DK? Can you draw me a map of how DK has a worse time than Snake and D3 even though his aerial speed is top of A tier and D3's is the worst in the game? Draw me a picture. I could say the exact same thing about Marth. By the way, DK's punch is a better punishing tool than anything Marth has, it also punishes in the air and on the ground. Learn your ****. Marth gets juggled just as easily as DK.
 
You're just as big a target as them. The difference is, Snake has grenades, C4, a great bair to help get down (when coupled with his very fast FF speed) and an excellent B reversal grenade to get his far away from where he was, fast. DDD has multiple jumps, a very good, body covering dair, and can very easily get to the ledge where he can get on stage thanks to a plethora of options he has. DK has bair, which only covers behind him (I brought up Snake's specifically because his bair covers his entire body) and Marth's uair and bair while underneath DK (it hits up and behind) both outrange everything DK has iirc. And, since Marth's best place to juggle is barely above the ground, we outspeed you. (Our dash to your aerial mobility.) DK can very easily get to the ledge. That is very true. He'll probably get hit once, and only once while trying to do that. But then, it puts Marth at one of his best positions. While I don't know a lot about DK's game on the edge, at a glance, it seems to be just slightly better than average at getting on the stage from the ledge. Although, I would like to hear about his options on the ledge if you wouldn't mind. And I've already said why Marth doesn't get juggled as badly as DK. As for DK's neutral B, damage wise, yes, it's a better punisher than anything Marth has. But, on reaction, Marth can shield, counter, SHfair, DB, airdodge, DS, or just walk away. Only time it's going to hit is when Marth jumps into it (which is a player thing and doesn't belong here) or when Marth wiffs a laggy move, like fsmash. And, with the plethora of moves Marth has that don't lag, much at all, why is Marth using a laggy move that isn't to punish something DK did?

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Yeah..Snake's utilt rapes too, but if you look closely, his backside is wide open! holy ****! snake's utilt sucks now
 
The difference here is that Snake's explosives can almost always force his opponent to be in front of him.

Quote (originally posted by Darknid):
Yeah, the problem with this is that you don't use these moves in situations where they won't win. DK's ftilt is safer than Marth's, by the way. Your fair also doesn't beat it unless it's right after the hitbox disappears. It's also nearly identical in speed to your fair, meaning I could say the same thing about yours. DK's dtilt also beats yours, and you won't space it. Not against a good DK. You'd have to be at a long distance when he released it, in which case..he won't.

It's safer by like... 2 frames. Regardless, jab is a better anti-air for Marth anyways. Since DK's arm is extending, as Marth's fair is already out, you extend into our hitbox, meaning you get hit, before you hit Marth's hurtbox. If Marth SHfairs and DK's ftilt are done simultaneously:
Marth's fair hits frames 4-8. +4 for jumping, 8-12.
DK's ftilt hits frames 8-11. His arm is fully extended on frame 9 (that's when it would hit Marth). So, on frame 8, when it's partially extended, and our fair is out, your arm gets hit, and we don't. Frame 9-11, the moves will trade. Frame 12, Marth wins
Also, what I meant about dtilt, is just out of range, so, when we both poke, your arm barely misses, and we hit your arm w/ our dtilt at as close of range as possible. regardless, Marth's dtilt hits 7-13, DK's hits 6-9. Fully extended on frame 7. So, both perfectly spaced, they trade/clash.
#16
9:42 PM Nov 30 2009 2009
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Let me rephrase, DK can't shieldgrab us while we're attacking in the air. Our aerial mobility lets us get far enough out of his range fast enough that unless we really mess up our spacing, he can't grab us. Grounded, I'll admit it's a lot easier, but if we're spacing well, you can't do it except from a PS. Even DDD, the longest non-tether grab range in the game can't shieldgrab our dtilt if tippered except from a PS.


DK doesn't really have to be defensive against Marth. He will most likely be spacing bairs which means Marth cannot approach like that. But again, DK is the same way but with more range and aerial speed, so he's still better off than you with the grabbing situation.

  
Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Not completely, true. But, enough to avoid grabs and to make DK have to be incredibly careful w/ his attacks. If we walk/float out of your range, just barely and swing our sword, it'll hit you because you're arm will be sticking out, and it's not disjointed. No, it's not enough to flat out say "We win cuz we can aim where you arm is going to be OLOLOLOL" but, it's still an important thing to point out. The fact that we're disjointed, and DK isn't does matter.


Float out of my range? You'll be floating pretty far away. We also float faster than you, so I think we'll be floating out of your range attacking you. The disjointedness doesn't matter much because DK's attacks still beat Marth's. He extends his hurtbox but very rarely will a Marth player actually have the timing to capitalize on that, it usually just happens by chance which isn't as much of a threat.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Yes, Marth does have that blind spot underneath him, DK doesn't have the tools to juggle Marth though when we have enough to help us get down. (Comparatively, not alone you don't have enough tools.) We can DB stall and SB bounce to make it hard to predict when/where we're coming down, and the only way you're juggling us is by predicting our landing and grabbing/uthrowing us again or MAYBE utilt as a mix-up. Don't get me wrong, you have to tools to do it, and probably can juggle most characters very well, but, I just don't see Marth being juggled. Also, I know DK's bair beats our fair when done simultaneously, that's why Marth shouldn't fair first when DK's back is turned. Nair is a better choice there. But, when you're back isn't turned, or if we fair on reaction, fair wins. You can say it's a guessing game, and it would be, if bair wasn't DK's only pressure move he can safely, and realistically apply.


DK has the tools to juggle anyone. DK can headbutt stall, punch bounce, bair, dair, he also falls faster which makes airdodging safer. I'll juggle you with utilt, uair and by grabbing you as you land. DK's uair is great for juggling. Variety doesn't matter as much when all of your moves lose to DK's one move(not saying they do, just those examples). All DK needs is bair for that purpose. Very few characters have a better move for it.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Yes, it is true it depends on who's recovering, obviously the one who is recovering is going to be at the disadvantage (unless you're metaknight) but, what DK can do to us while we're offstage, compared to what we can do to DK, while close, Marth wins that one. Also, we have fair, bair, nair, counter, DB1 and maybe SB but that one is risky. Dair is bad except for spiking easy recoveries (DK, Snake, Bowser, DDD, ROB, the spacies' up Bs, Diddy's barrels if they have to recover straight up instead of at an angle which they want to do) Also, just because you're using DK's upB doesn't make it different from a different upB. And, I've footstooled and spiked other DK's upBs before.


Yeah? I've spiked MKs out of shuttle loop with DK's side B. **** happens. It won't consistently happen. As for your fair, bair, blah blah, all that **** is good for one hit. For DK, one hit is all he needs. For you, you need a couple hits because DK's recovery goes so far the only way to mess with it is to spike which isn't a viable option for you.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
True, and it would matter a lot more (not saying it doesn't matter) if you were disjointed/had moves you could safely apply directly on Marth other than fair.


DK doesn't need disjointedness against Marth.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
Ok, until now, I'll admit you've been right for the most part. This is just wrong. Marth's throws always set up for something. That's like saying MK's dthrow doesn't set up for stuff, when everyone knows it's an excellent set-up. Marth's throws are the same way. No, they don't do much damage, but they put you in a bad position and Marth in an excellent one. One where Marth has almost all his options, and his opponent has very few. His fthrow/dthrow are excellent frame traps (and if you expect one and DI for that one and the other happens you usually eat an usmash. But, that doesn't matter right now as that is a player aspect, and not a character one.) Then, his uthrow sets up for juggles well.  


DK's are the same way, with the exception of dealing 3x as much damage. MK's dthrow doesn't guarantee anything. DK can do this exact same thing with his Dthrow, if you DI toward DK he can regrab, if you DI away you are submitting to tech chasing, if you jump you are setting yourself up for juggling. You're ****ed. Nothing ever beats DK's dthrow in theory. In reality, it's not really a good move.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
If Marth shieldgrabs as soon as he sees the attack come out (esp. the 2nd one because we can grab even faster there because it's easily predicted) you get shieldgrabbed. I did it last wednesday against a DK I was playing. Granted, while it looked like, I can't guarantee it was perfect spacing, so, maybe not. Also, the "get experience" line doesn't have place in a MU discussion unless I'm a top playe, which I'm not, and am playing against a top player. Although, I will say that, even though last Wednesday was my first time playing a good DK, and he is a better player than I am, I still kept it close to even (last stock 130+ percent.) But again, that doesn't matter.


Experience tells you the truth. Theorizing is worth so little in comparison. For instance, I just made a theory about DK's dthrow being the best movie in the entire game, but experience will tell you that it just isn't.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
You're just as big a target as them. The difference is, Snake has grenades, C4, a great bair to help get down (when coupled with his very fast FF speed) and an excellent B reversal grenade to get his far away from where he was, fast. DDD has multiple jumps, a very good, body covering dair, and can very easily get to the ledge where he can get on stage thanks to a plethora of options he has. DK has bair, which only covers behind him (I brought up Snake's specifically because his bair covers his entire body) and Marth's uair and bair while underneath DK (it hits up and behind) both outrange everything DK has iirc. And, since Marth's best place to juggle is barely above the ground, we outspeed you. (Our dash to your aerial mobility.) DK can very easily get to the ledge. That is very true. He'll probably get hit once, and only once while trying to do that. But then, it puts Marth at one of his best positions. While I don't know a lot about DK's game on the edge, at a glance, it seems to be just slightly better than average at getting on the stage from the ledge. Although, I would like to hear about his options on the ledge if you wouldn't mind. And I've already said why Marth doesn't get juggled as badly as DK. As for DK's neutral B, damage wise, yes, it's a better punisher than anything Marth has. But, on reaction, Marth can shield, counter, SHfair, DB, airdodge, DS, or just walk away. Only time it's going to hit is when Marth jumps into it (which is a player thing and doesn't belong here) or when Marth wiffs a laggy move, like fsmash. And, with the plethora of moves Marth has that don't lag, much at all, why is Marth using a laggy move that isn't to punish something DK did?


Grenades, C4, bair(DK's is way better), B reversal(which leaves him helpless until he lands unlike DK's), yada yada. I don't really care about nades or C4, either way I'm just going to uair the Snake. His fallspeed is all that helps him, but he's definitely more helpless than DK. As for DK's punch..lol..it punishes every attack you have. It's called SA. It eats and beats your attacks. Punch is also just as fast as anything Marth uses to punish, and can be used in the air, making it better. It also kills earlier and does more damage than anything Marth has except tipper Fsmash.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
The difference here is that Snake's explosives can almost always force his opponent to be in front of him.


Unless they can space attacks.

Quote (originally posted by ZK45):
It's safer by like... 2 frames. Regardless, jab is a better anti-air for Marth anyways. Since DK's arm is extending, as Marth's fair is already out, you extend into our hitbox, meaning you get hit, before you hit Marth's hurtbox. If Marth SHfairs and DK's ftilt are done simultaneously:
Marth's fair hits frames 4-8. +4 for jumping, 8-12.
DK's ftilt hits frames 8-11. His arm is fully extended on frame 9 (that's when it would hit Marth). So, on frame 8, when it's partially extended, and our fair is out, your arm gets hit, and we don't. Frame 9-11, the moves will trade. Frame 12, Marth wins
Also, what I meant about dtilt, is just out of range, so, when we both poke, your arm barely misses, and we hit your arm w/ our dtilt at as close of range as possible. regardless, Marth's dtilt hits 7-13, DK's hits 6-9. Fully extended on frame 7. So, both perfectly spaced, they trade/clash.


DKs don't use jabs for anti-air..practically no one does. Even Marth's is rendered obsolete by his other anti air options.

No..DK's wins. Test it out. DK's attacks have weird priority..For instance, every one of his upward attacks, though they have no disjointedness, beat Game and Watch's dair. His bair also beats GnW's bair despite lack of disjointedness..Fsmash, Dtilt, Ftilt > his ground attacks too, unless they clank(Dtilt and Fsmash)
http://www.formspring.me/darknid

#17
10:20 PM Nov 30 2009 2009
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra
Sage
Joined: Mar 2009
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Jesus you people expect me to read all this? icon_eh
#18
10:20 AM Dec 8 2009 2009
ChaosMarf
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2008
ChaosMarf is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.

DK vs marth is 55 45 DK'S favor Ftilt alone screws us. most of the above posters have no clue what they are talking about.

Even if a well spaced Fair hits DK's shield marth eats a up angled ftilt to the face.
#19
5:31 AM Oct 17 2011 2011
TheUltimateSpicy
Joined: Sep 2010

um...
My personal opinion on the marth vs meta-knight match up. NEVER, and I mean NEVER go off the stage after a meta-knight. "But maybe they won't expect...." NO!!!!
#20
3:06 AM Dec 31 2011 2011
XxSlayerxX
Joined: Dec 2011

its weird that marth has an advantage over olimar, but some olimars i fight are ****ing HARD TO DEAL WITH
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