Newer Zelda Match-up Discussion! - Next up, Ganon.

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#1
11:44 PM Aug 1 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

Newer Zelda Match-up Discussion!
Okay, so in an attempt of reviving the Zelda boards outside of the social, I'll start by making a new match-up thread considering the old one died out.

So as we discuss more characters I'll add pictures for the MU ratios and such, with a description of the match up (or which page/section to look for the write up)
Ven's number one fanboy. <3
Last edited by Tharja, 11:18 PM on Aug 10, 2012
#2
11:48 PM Aug 1 2012 2012
Rizen
Joined: Sep 2009
Rizen has written an exemplary guide on the All is Brawl forum.Rizen impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Rizen helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

MUs, are they even, bad or worse?
I'd like to discuss MK or Peach 1st.
#3
3:28 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

Let's get Metaknight out of the way, then we will jump to Peach. Both MUs are terrible for us. So, I'll get ready to write up stuff for the MK MU in a bit.
#4
5:48 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
evmaXy
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2012
evmaXy holds or held a world record score in one of Brawl's Stadium modes.

Meta Knight MU
He approaches, we're ****ed

He doesn't approach, we're ****ed

Done.
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Last edited by evmaXy, 6:13 PM on Aug 02, 2012
#5
5:55 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

LOL, press down b and see the Sheik MU discussion for hope on winning this MU. -4 for sure. ;_;
#6
6:14 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
evmaXy
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2012
evmaXy holds or held a world record score in one of Brawl's Stadium modes.

At least MK doesn't transform to Olimar icon_wink
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#7
6:19 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

We should still discuss this MU, for those who actually have the bravery to go through this. Luckily he doesn't though, two bad MUs in one match is too much. <_<
#8
6:33 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Rizen
Joined: Sep 2009
Rizen has written an exemplary guide on the All is Brawl forum.Rizen impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Rizen helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UUBlc1aYEJlv6Kcq6gbC1K7w&v=OirzakKM4hM#t=21s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yIEyerr4dg&feature=plcp
Those are my recent, better games vs MK and they're wifi so not much help besides for the online MU :/ .
MK outreaches Zelda and wins at everything. His transcendent sword will not stop din's- good to know. Never challenge his broken Dsmash, especially when you're at high %s. Zelda can DI up out of tornadoes.
I suggest play defensive mixed with short aggressive chains and hope to land a power move in the confusion.
#9
6:58 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Dahniska
Castle Made of Sand
Joined: Feb 2010
Dahniska positively represents All is Brawl and actively brings new users to the site.Dahniska did something funny.Dahniska impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Dahniska helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

MK's really hard for Zelda. Imo her worst matchup, since he destroys her in almost every way. Your main tools for this matchup are:

-Fsmash. It has transcendant priority like his stuff and more disjoint than most of your moves, and it hits very hard. It will match the range of a lot of his moves, but loses to his spaced ftilt (this move rapes Zelda really bad). It can beat nado if nado isn't aimed for your head as well. Just beware his SDI and don't spam mindlessly.
-Dsmash. This move has speed to rival most of MK's moves and very little cooldown with an amazing knockback trajectory (though he can recover from almost anything, so this is more of a "gtfo" or a kill move than anything else. It loses to MK as far as range goes but still helps a lot.
-Din's fire (yeah, I know you guys dislike it, but still...). This move forces MK to approach overall, which can help you to play a defensive game a little. Since all of his moves have transcendant priority but glide attack, dash attack and some parts of nado (I think) he has a hard time trying to cancel this move out with a move of his own, forcing him to shield or dodge. This also can force him to not use glide to recover, and if you hit him, it does a lot of damage. Just don't use it mindlessly as it is punishable, especially if he nados through it.
-Dtilt (it's really fast and racks up damage like nothing).
-Usmash should be your main kill move on him as he's a lightweight, and it comes out really fast and beats moves like nado and has a lingering hitbox. Try and save it for the kill.
-Utilt (can kill even earlier than usmash, but doesn't have the lingering hitbox).
-Jab when used smartly can punish MKs who like to run up and try to grab you, and can beat nado if spaced perfectly.
-Nair (use smartly, really good for combos and shield pokes and if you stale it, it's good cause it refreshes your kill moves).

-Beware his dsmash! It's so fast and powerful.
-Avoid trying to beat him in a ground spacing game up close, his ftilt beats your moves, and his dtilt will trade with your fsmash, which is a trade in his favor.
-Shuttle loop rapes you hard. Try and be aware of when he's going to use it and avoid or punish. If he misses and ends up directly above you, you can punish with uair/usmash.
-He rapes your shield really bad, don't stay in it too long, but don't spam spotdodges mindlessly. Rolling away unpredictably at times works great cause of your long and fast roll.
-Beware of nado. At least some of your moves beat it cause of transcendant priority.
-He is really weak to spiking. Don't fish for it, but if you get a good chance, don't be scared to spike him.
-If he has to recover to the edge, edgehogging, then getting up with an utilt can often score a really early kill if he hasn't saved his jumps.
-Don't fight him offstage. It's really bad for you.

The matchup is really bad for Zelda, but if you play well and he doesn't, you can beat him.
#10
9:23 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
John Locke
Almost Famous
Joined: Jun 2012

against Snake........yeah its already over.
#11
10:35 PM Aug 2 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

Well, thanks for seriously writing this stuff up, Diska.
I'll add that forward smash can break through tornado as well. I think we should get Peach done with before Snake...I just suck at write ups. XD
#12
9:42 AM Aug 3 2012 2012
Dahniska
Castle Made of Sand
Joined: Feb 2010
Dahniska positively represents All is Brawl and actively brings new users to the site.Dahniska did something funny.Dahniska impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Dahniska helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

No problem. You should get Mocha to get you some ideas as well, I got most of these from playing with her or watching her.

A few more things too:
-If you get sucked in by nado, sometimes you can use nair straight out of it for the punish (usually takes them by surprise lol). On rare occasions, lightning kick can do this too.
-Most of his kills will come from Dsmash, Fsmash, Nair, Shuttle loop or Glide attack. When he's trying to kill you, watch for those moves especially.
-Dtilt to utilt is a legit kill setup at like 90% in this matchup.
-Some MKs will hit you with the first hit of ftilt or a dtilt, then run in for a grab. Watch for it, if they do that, spotdodge and punish lol.
-Neutral b is a good option if he's spamming spotdodge.
-Usmash shouldn't be used much if he's on the ground, he annoyingly is too short to get sucked in most of the time.
#13
11:05 AM Aug 3 2012 2012
Mocha
Monster Hunter
Joined: Apr 2009
Mocha impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Mocha helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.Mocha keeps people entertained by hosting fun events.Mocha positively represents All is Brawl and actively brings new users to the site.Mocha 100% confirmed, real female on the internet. Prepare the sausage cannons!Mocha won an All is Brawl Signature of the Week contest!

Agreed with most stuff Diska said, except a few things. I also want to add on a bit more:

Zelda's:

Jab: The effectiveness of Zelda's jab in this matchup is questionable. Not saying you should never use it, but you simply have better moves to choose from. If you do manage to hit him with a jab though, especially at low percents, it can be used as a set up move into a dash attack or dash grab.

Down Air: Such a gimmicky move. Can be rewarding if you sweet spot (though because of MK's great recovery, he still might make it back, especially at low percents). All in all though, this move isn't really worth risking, because it puts you off stage. Unless you get a hard read and catch your opponent off guard, this move can hurt you more than the other way around.

Forward Smash: Is to be used for spacing. Yes, you can still kill with it, but you don't have any other move that will outrange f-smash's range (barring Din's Fire). However, as mentioned already, MK can space a f-tilt and outrange your f-smash. He can also do the same with his d-tilt, though not as reliably. Zelda's f-smash sucks as an offensive tool here to be honest, but as a defensive, 'let him come to me and I'll f-smash him', it's a tad better.

Down Smash: As said before, is a fairly fast move with great knockback. You can in fact, beat MK's down smash with your own simply because your down smash is faster than his by 1 frame (if I recall correctly, but correct me if I'm wrong). So if you shield Meta Knight's down smash, immediately down smash out of shield before he has another chance to down smash again. Now obviously, he can do other mix ups too, so be wary of that.

You don't want to get too predictable, because if MK picks up a read on you, it's game over. The MU is already bad enough as it is without MK getting reads on you. The key here is to not rush in, play patient, and try to outsmart your opponent. Avoid taking crazy risks unless you're very confident about it (but even so, don't go for like down air spikes when you're at 0). And most importantly, don't give up. If you get discouraged fast like I do, you'll just play worse. Try to find a way to keep yourself focused, even if you've been 3-stocked the match before, or if you've died at like 40 from a shuttle loop.

*Edit* Sorry if this seems like a rather 'lazy' post. I could go a lot more into depth if needed.
#14
11:21 AM Aug 3 2012 2012
evmaXy
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2012
evmaXy holds or held a world record score in one of Brawl's Stadium modes.

Quote (originally posted by Arcane Warrior Mocha):
You can in fact, beat MK's down smash with your own simply because your down smash is faster than his by 1 frame (if I recall correctly, but correct me if I'm wrong).
You are correct, we share the fastest Dsmash at 3 Frames (just in case anyone who is reading this doesn't know, ROB) while MK is 4 icon_biggrin
Quote (originally posted by Arcane Warrior Mocha):
*Edit* Sorry if this seems like a rather 'lazy' post. I could go a lot more into depth if needed.
You're saying there's more than that big mouthful of words icon_eh Anyways I'm a sucker for huge amounts of detail so you can elaborate further if you wanted to.
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#15
6:42 PM Aug 10 2012 2012
K to the ate
Fantastic Fashionist
Joined: May 2009
K to the ate did something funny.K to the ate participated in the Karaoke Contest!

So let's move on to characters we can actually beat like....

Ganon, Jiggz, Ganon, Ness, Ganon, falco, Ganon, uhhh...Yoshi, Ganon, R.O.B, and did I mention Ganon?
#16
7:15 PM Aug 10 2012 2012
evmaXy
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2012
evmaXy holds or held a world record score in one of Brawl's Stadium modes.

I agree with Kate, lets do Ganon. Since it is our only even MU +2 MU. icon_wink
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#17
8:00 PM Aug 10 2012 2012
Rizen
Joined: Sep 2009
Rizen has written an exemplary guide on the All is Brawl forum.Rizen impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Rizen helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

I'm fine with any of those. Ganon's okay next.
#18
11:16 PM Aug 10 2012 2012
Tharja
Joined: Oct 2011

Okay Ganon it is then!
#19
7:19 AM Aug 11 2012 2012
Rizen
Joined: Sep 2009
Rizen has written an exemplary guide on the All is Brawl forum.Rizen impressed a staff member by doing something smart.Rizen helped an All is Brawl member with a problem.

(stupid all is fail wouldn't let this post earlier)

Ganon thrives on punishing.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5216073&postcount=2
His fastest ground attacks are grab frame 7, jab 8 and his rush flame choke and downB attack 16. Uair is his fastest attack starting frame 6 and a very good attack.
As you can see Ganon NEEDS players to make themselves open. He punishes super hard though; Ganon can easily KO after only landing 4 or 5 attacks. Expect power moves to KO Zelda at 80%+.
Needless to say NEVER roll toward him, it's easy to punish by Ganon with a SH Dair. SH Dair has great disjoint, strong upward launch to ground opponents and a wicked spike to air opponents. He counters hasty ground approaches/actions with it.
His legs are big like Snake's and have good disjoint in the air. Though Ganon has decent disjoint and great priority, his hurt box is so big that he is easy to cut down from the side (like his rush attacks). Beware Uair- it is fast with great reach all around Ganon.

Ganon's (G's) dash attack has great power. Most of his attacks have high KOing potential but watch out for Uair's huge range around Ganon. He has few attacks that don't require good reads/punishes to land but he does have them. He can use jab/Ftilt/Dtilt/murder quake for relatively quick attacks and shield grab> throw and punish with a good read. G's only guaranteed grab trick is on Wario (Ahhahaha!) but his big attack areas follow up grabs/throws well.

G's Utilt IS stupid considering he can punish faster/safer with Fsmash or Warlock Punch. Utilt sucks characters in with a wind effect and has a crazy huge attack area in front of and below G. It's shield pressure can almost break a full shield too. Do NOT challenge it from the ledge, it can throw your spacing off and KO very early. It will always attack frames 81-84 and no earlier. Good G's use Utilt's HUGE (I can't stress that enough) attack area when the opponent will be forced to risk vulnerability (recovering/ledge) or to punish. It can be SDIed down and teched from the ground. Reverse Warlock Punch is G's strongest punisher.

With Utilt (not used often, better on wifail btw), Uair and Dair etc, G has a mean close-to-the-stage intercepting game. Avoid recovering anywhere near him if at all possible. He has powerful disjointed attacks. Dair will probably kill Zelda offstage at any %. Ganon stops ledge returns with SH Dair (another big attack area that can hit ledge jumps/attacks/stands/and rolls depending on the spacing, flame choke, Uair, Fsmash etc. Ledge returns have less areas to read and are easier to punish. He's bad vs planking so stall a bit if you need to but beware he can Dtilt, wizard kick (off the stage) or start a Utilt depending.

Ganon's Flame choke (from TP, he kills a Sage with it before being banished to the Twilight realm) has the guaranteed follow ups of Murder quake (jump and instantly downB, the landing attack of air downB only hits) and Dtilt if Zelda getup attacks. He can punish Zelda's other get up options with good reads too. Rolling toward Ganon risks the worst punishments, his SH Dair and Fsmash. Mix up your escapes and keep in mind waiting a second to see if Ganon starts attacking early is an option too.
Flame choke in the air has bad reach (like it's ground version) but being a grab move will beat other attacks if he connects. Ganoncide makes a high% Ganon die with a low % opponent and both start at 0% next stock so he wins. Ganon can ledge stall flame choke and take down (off stage KO) characters standing on the ledge. G's ledge hop Uair hits far into the stage too.
If Ganon Ganoncides when both players have one stock or Ganon has more and the opponent has one he wins the game regardless of if it goes into a sudden death.
Ganoncide into water gives Zelda the frame advantage, lol. If G does this down to Brin's acid (Norfair's lava etc) however, G is launched up when the acid touches but his victim falls for a short time (more with more damage) as if still caught; this can KO them off the bottom before the acid launches them back up if the level's low and damage is high enough.

Dsmash is his only 2 hit chaining attack (Nair can but wasn't designed to). G can use it to punish crossovers. Fsmash has wicked power and can be angled to slightly hit more up or down (up adds a little power too) think of it as a better version of G&W's Fsmash with better reach; it's easy to see coming but beware any lag it might punish. Usmash is over shadowed by Ganon's great SH aerials but he has it and can platform poke/cut down SHs with it.

Ganon's UpSpecial has okay distance and punches, rather than grabs at the end. 'Dark Dive'- it dives up, great name *eyeroll*. The major flaw is it launches but has no or little hitstun. Several characters with fast aerials can hit G after being launched! IDK the frames or what Zelda has guaranteed; can someone fill that in? As a grab-type attack (except the highest point at the end) upB will beat shields.

Ganon's movement speed and mobility makes Link look good! His recovery is about like Mario's but slower. He's a large target too (Wolf can sweetspot sideB G when he's standing on level ground). G's heavy (Snake's heavier though >;[ ) and survives at high damage but is cut down soooo easily it doesn't matter. Be careful he doesn't kamikaze flame choke as a last ditch. IDK if Zelda should intercept offstage tbh, she is vulnerable too.

Ganon should play cautiously. Zelda is less-than good too and needs to be very careful. Ganon has better reach in the air and devastating punishes. Zelda is faster with better mobility but dies early and has the lag Ganon needs to punish and win. Both characters are very easy to juggle/punish and have good punishes so be patent.

Stages
Zelda has better mobility. Ganon punishes better on smaller stages with platforms.
Strike YI, BF. Ban Brin or YI. CP maybe Halberd, FD, big stages where G can't reach through platforms and has obvious approaches. I'd say CP RC or Frigate but Zelda has the same weakness there.

52/48 Zelda, you could say 5/5 aka +0, even. IMO on wifi it's 52/48 Ganon.
#20
7:59 AM Aug 11 2012 2012
evmaXy
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2012
evmaXy holds or held a world record score in one of Brawl's Stadium modes.

I should add that the reason for SH is because Uair, Dair & Bair can autocancel. Also on the Ganon SWF, DLA said SHFF Bair, if done correctly, can make 2 Bairs per SECOND. This can be followed by Dtilt or Gerudo. To anyone who says they can attack OoS afterwards, Ganon can block Martha's UpB OoS. :/
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280417&page=498 & it's post #7456 onwards.

The more I think about this MU, the more I think it's in Ganons favor. At least be grateful that his Fair is affected by a coding error. icon_wink
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