Official Tournament Stage List Discussion

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#1
5:09 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
aisight
Ordinary Magician
Joined: Mar 2007
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Official Tournament Stage List Discussion
This stage list is compiled based on the stage-strike system, which works as follows...
Take the list of starter stages (has to be an odd number). Each player takes turns striking a stage until one remains. That stage will be the one played on for the first round.

+ means could be considered for counterpick
- means could be considered to be banned
* means could be considered neutral

Starters:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Halberd +
Lylat Cruise +
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium +

Counterpicks:

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion -
Pirate Ship
Norfair -
Frigate Orpheon
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege *
Distant Planet -
Pictochat -
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive +
WarioWare, Inc.
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee) +
Onett
Corneria
Green Greens +
Big Blue

Ankoku: So by logic of parabolic curves, yes, it is possible to catch up even when improving at the same rate.
RyokoYaksa: you expect him to get that on the first try?
Last edited by aisight, 5:18 PM on Apr 27, 2009
#2
5:15 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
randizzle
Joined: Mar 2008

Shouldn't stadium 1 be in counterpick now?
#3
5:35 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">My List.

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Neutrals:
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Battlefield
Final Destination

Counterpicks:
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Luigi's
Mansion
Skyworld
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island

Banned:
<span>Green
Hill Zone
Corneria</span>

Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario
Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Pokémon
Stadium 2
Port Town
Wario Ware
Distant Planet
New Pork
City
The Summit
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
75m
Spear
Pillar
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Electroplankton
Yoshi's
Island (Melee)
Big Blue
Temple
Onett
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Battleship Halberd
Great Sea
Frigate Orpheon
Pokémon Stadium
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
Last edited by DADDY1, 12:05 PM on Mar 06, 2008
#4
5:44 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
t1mmy
Joined: Mar 2007
t1mmy passed a Tournament Host Certification test.t1mmy is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.t1mmy keeps people entertained by hosting fun events.t1mmy has referred new users to the site.t1mmy wrote an exemplary guide.t1mmy wrote a blog entry that was featured on the site!t1mmy has an eye for classic game sprites and a head for modern gaming's legacy.

The following rules are used to determine a stage's classification and availability for competitive play.
Classification of "Neutral" Stages:
  • Average-sized boundaries (neither too high/wide nor to short/low)
  • One solid floor of appropriate length
  • No vertical walls
  • No solid ceilings
  • No walk-off edges
  • No screen scrolling
  • No environmental damage
  • No stage elements that disrupt competitive play

Classification of Counterpick Stages:
As above except:
  • May contain random elements with little impact on play
  • There may be Minor Environmental Damage
  • Any screen-movement may only be minor
Classification of Banned Stages:
  1. Contains edges that are 'Walk-off' (e.g. Bridge of Eldin/Distant Planet)
  2. Has one or more vertical walls (e.g. Corneria/Shadow Moses Island)
  3. Excessive stage/screen scrolling/transformation (e.g. Rumble Falls/Mushroomy Kingdom)
  4. Has Major Environmental Damage (e.g. Spear Pillar/Port Town Aero Drive)
  5. Has a design that greatly invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple/Hanenbow)
  6. Contains stage elements disruptive to competitive play (e.g. Skyworld/Luigi's Mansion)
With those classifications in place we get the following stages:
Neutral Stages
  • Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Smashville
Counterpick Stages
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Yoshi's Island
  • Frigate Orpheon*
Notes:
  1. "Minor" Environmental damage refers to damage that does not KO, or does not KO until high percents.
  2. "Major" Environmental damage refers to "One-Hit" KO or damage that can KO under 100%.
  3. Stages marked with an "*" could be considered "hard" counters. That is, they may be banned for having any Stage Scrolling, disruptive Transformation, and/or Environmental Damage. The other stages could be considered "Light" Counterpicks - stages that are fit for use in any tournament environment.
Extended Counterpick Stages
Some stages are "mostly" viable for competitive play, but contain one or more elements that can greatly affect an otherwise skill-based outcome. Since they are not completely viable for a serious, competitive tournament they are considered "Extended Counterpicks".

Any Tournament Organizer who wishes to use Extended Counterpicks must list which stages are available specifically in the tournament's rules so that players will be prepared ahead of time. It is also recommended that the T.O. use the optional "Stage Banning" rules when Extended Counterpicks are allowed. (see the Complete Rules for Stage Banning rules).
  1. Brinstar
  2. Castle Siege
  3. Delfino
  4. Halberd
  5. Jungle Japes
  6. Pictochat
  7. Pokemon Stadium 1
  8. Rainbow Cruise
If no Extended Counterpicks are written into the rules, they remain Banned.
Last edited by t1mmy, 2:20 PM on Nov 22, 2009
#5
6:19 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

Quote (originally posted by t!mmy):
Rather than just listing which stages I feel are neutral, counter, or
banned, I'm going to give classifications of those stages and then show
what you get when you adhere to those classifications.
Classification of Random/Neutral Stages:
  • Static screen movement.
  • No environmental damage
  • Random elements with little or no impact on the players (e.g. platform movement or transformation).
Classification of Counter Stages:
  • Static Screen movement.
  • Random Elements with little impact on the players. (e.g. Stage transformation)
  • Minor environmental damage.
Classification of Banned Stages:
  • 'Walk-off' screens (e.g. Bridge of Eldin)
  • Vertical walls (e.g. Corneria)
  • Excessive scrolling (e.g. Rumble Falls)
  • Major environmental damage or effects (e.g. Wario Ware)
  • A design that invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple)
  • Highly disruptive stage elements (e.g. Skyworld)
With those classifications in place we get the following stages:

Neutral Stages
  • Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Smashville
  • Yoshi's Island
Counter Pick Stages
  • Battleship Halberd
  • Luigi's Mansion
  • Norfair
  • Brinstar (Melee)
  • Rainbow Ride (Melee)


platform movement and transformation DOES affect players in a big way. if you dont know that then you shouldn't be posting what you think is neutral.
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
Last edited by DADDY1, 6:20 PM on Mar 05, 2008
#6
6:41 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
joenopride
Honorably Discharged
Joined: Mar 2008

I agree with t!mmy's reasoning, but I still feel sick looking at the number of stages that are legal. 3/4 of all stages would be cut...
#7
6:51 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
t1mmy
Joined: Mar 2007
t1mmy passed a Tournament Host Certification test.t1mmy is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.t1mmy keeps people entertained by hosting fun events.t1mmy has referred new users to the site.t1mmy wrote an exemplary guide.t1mmy wrote a blog entry that was featured on the site!t1mmy has an eye for classic game sprites and a head for modern gaming's legacy.

Quote (originally posted by DADDY):
platform movement and transformation DOES affect players in a big way. if you dont know that then you shouldn't be posting what you think is neutral.
I do know that, and that is why I posted what I think is neutral.  Notice that it says "with little or no impact on the players".

An example of this is the previously accepted Neutral Stages from Melee: Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story.  In Brawl you can see it in Lylat Cruise where the level actually tilts a little and in Smashville with the single platform movement.
#8
6:54 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

Quote (originally posted by t!mmy):
I do know that, and that is why I posted what I think is neutral. Notice that it says "with little or no impact on the players".

An example of this is the previously accepted Neutral Stages from Melee: Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's Story. In Brawl you can see it in Lylat Cruise where the level actually tilts a little and in Smashville with the single platform movement.


fod was never truly neutral. it was just accepted as a compromise. don't believe me? ask jiano, tapion, or any other melee falcon main.
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
#9
7:10 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
t1mmy
Joined: Mar 2007
t1mmy passed a Tournament Host Certification test.t1mmy is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.t1mmy keeps people entertained by hosting fun events.t1mmy has referred new users to the site.t1mmy wrote an exemplary guide.t1mmy wrote a blog entry that was featured on the site!t1mmy has an eye for classic game sprites and a head for modern gaming's legacy.

I'm glad to see you agree as none of the stages listed as Neutral are anything close to being as broken as FoD.
#10
7:49 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

Quote (originally posted by t!mmy):
I'm glad to see you agree as none of the stages listed as Neutral are anything close to being as broken as FoD.


pokemon stadium is more broken.
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
#11
7:49 PM Mar 5 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

Quote (originally posted by t!mmy):
I'm glad to see you agree as none of the stages listed as Neutral are anything close to being as broken as FoD.


pokemon stadium is more broken.
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
#12
12:42 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
Boolossus
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2007
Boolossus is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.

My opinion...

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpick:
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Battleship Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Skyworld
Castle Siege
Corneria (Melee)
Frigate Orpheon


All other stages would be banned.
#13
1:34 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
Mathos
Joined: Mar 2007

I mostly agree with Ankuko's stage list. But a couple questions though:

Why is Mario Circuit banned?
Why is Distant Planet banned?
Why is Onett banned?

And I'm assuming you think Electroplankton will cause too much camping or promote it. Correct me if I'm wrong. And the same goes for Bridge of Eldin.
#14
2:00 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
JTB
Bonafide
Joined: Mar 2007
JTB passed a Tournament Host Certification test.JTB has provided valuable testing services for the website.JTB is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.JTB did something funny.

I'm pretty sure Mario Circuit and Onett are banned because they are walk-off stages.

I don't know why for Distant Planet though, I don't think the environment conditions are too extreme to warrant a ban.
#15
2:10 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
Brown Paper Sack
Joined: Mar 2008

Quote (originally posted by t!mmy):
Classification of Counter Stages:
  • Static Screen movement.
  • Random Elements with little impact on the players. (e.g. Stage transformation)
  • Minor environmental damage.

Great Sea fits this, doesn't it? The cannonballs don't kill too hard, and that catapult is not much of a problem.

But, otherwise, I agree with t!mmy's list. Definitely won't be my house's playlist, but very satisfactory for tournaments.
#16
4:16 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
vayseth
Host
Joined: Mar 2008
vayseth is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.vayseth wrote an exemplary guide.

Mario kart- Dedede just needs to sit on one side of the level, throw you once and you die so it's gotta be a ban. More characters than Dedede can do it, but he can chain grab you into it, which is awful.

I'm not so sure about distant planet. I know if you land on the guy who eats you he can just flip you up and eat you but I'm not sure how reliable that is. It might be allowable.

Onett is banned for the same reasons it was before... camping and walk of ledges (meaning one throw and you die).

I largely agree with ankoku's post. I think that's a perfect stage list. Might need a little tweaking here and there but it looks fine to me atm.
#17
7:44 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
Takumaru
Friendly
Joined: Mar 2008
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Distant planet should be a counter-pick. It only has one walkoff side and the red bug thing on the right side has never been much of a problem for me. IMO the walk off side is no worse than the close sides on green-greens or the rear end of corneria in melee. Also it's a really unique stage in terms of edge guarding (is that one word?) with it's odd lay out. Let's at least not ban it and a few other staged right away.
#18
9:50 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
DADDY1
In the Spotlight
Joined: Feb 2008

Quote (originally posted by Takumaru):
Distant planet should be a counter-pick. It only has one walkoff side and the red bug thing on the right side has never been much of a problem for me. IMO the walk off side is no worse than the close sides on green-greens or the rear end of corneria in melee. Also it's a really unique stage in terms of edge guarding (is that one word?) with it's odd lay out. Let's at least not ban it and a few other staged right away.


why is it that new players always advocate not banning a stage? oh ya, because they want to counterpick it.

i edited my post to have my list.
"When I go DDD, it's GGG."

"It's melee, just slower."
Last edited by DADDY1, 9:54 AM on Mar 06, 2008
#19
10:53 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
aisight
Ordinary Magician
Joined: Mar 2007
aisight passed a Tournament Host Certification test.aisight has provided valuable testing services for the website.aisight unleashed the power of love!aisight is connected in the Six Degrees of Smash web.aisight did something funny.aisight wrote an exemplary guide.aisight was featured in the Host of the Month article series!

Quote (originally posted by Mathos):
I mostly agree with Ankuko's stage list. But a couple questions though:

Why is Mario Circuit banned?
Why is Distant Planet banned?
Why is Onett banned?

And I'm assuming you think Electroplankton will cause too much camping or promote it. Correct me if I'm wrong. And the same goes for Bridge of Eldin.


The list is really just Chu's list for his tournament, but I'll give my thoughts on those three stages.

Mario Circuit promotes camping pretty well, too. The bottom two corners are the two permanent "safe zones" on the board, and some characters (Peach) can barely even make it to the upper road without having to use an Up+B.

I have no idea why Distant Planet is banned. I've never played it and I've rarely seen it get played on. If any of you have extensive experience on this stage,  I'd like to hear what's good and bad about it.

Onett was banned because it was in Melee, but I think this can possibly be changed to a counterpick. The walkoff ledges aren't terribly relevant seeing as how a car can force your movement every so often, so camping is not a strictly safe option.

Ankoku: So by logic of parabolic curves, yes, it is possible to catch up even when improving at the same rate.
RyokoYaksa: you expect him to get that on the first try?
#20
11:56 AM Mar 6 2008 2008
Mathos
Joined: Mar 2007

Well I don't see anything broken about Distant Planet. It has a walk off slant but its pretty hard to camp that area, especially with the waterfall. The monster (sorry for my lack of pikmin knowledge) on the right side of the stage doesn't really do anything. He can kill you, but I've only seen it once and I have no idea how to replicate it. It is an awkward stage though as edgeguarding is weird with a waterfall ledge.

My personal feelings about Onett though is that no character is fast enough to move around the stage and not get caught while camping effectively. And the cars hardly do any knockback.

But I can see the reasoning for Mario Circuit.
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