PS2 is the only one I agree with. The others are horrible stages that degenerate gameplay or are too overcentralizing.

I myself can only agree on PS2 as well, but let's see how often some of the stages will be used in due time. There better be vids soon of the stages, though.

luigi's mansion: cove of life + circle camping all day long. People make the argument that you can technically destroy the stage until it works in your favor but as long as one fourth of it is erect you can camp the other side of the pillar, and when all four are down there quite frankly isn't enough time to do much before the entire mansions spawns again

ps2: lol me and cadet had a longass discussion about this in another thread but i think he started it up again in a different forum altogether

ptad: the cars are honestly too game influencing for a hazard. yes there's *skill* involved in zoning your opponent so you're in a safer position but the stage is way too rewarding for the player who does it better because the game awards you an instant kill

green greens: rainbow glitch makes the stage unplayable. there's a bunch of other things that makes the stage not cp worthy but as long as the rainbow glitch is possible to recreate (which it is), green greens can never be legal

If you tear down the mansion completely, you only got 21 seconds (I've tested the time once before) to make the most of it til it comes back again. Honestly, it's a bad idea to have this place legal, but I'm sure I said that tons of times.
And what are your thoughts on Distant Planet? It shouldn't be legal like I said before.

Luigi's Mansion. I understand the complaints, but I've tried to replicate them and found that, in general, it was not as easy to run away as one would imagine. Even with the whole stage intact. I also have not seen any videos where this has happened.

Distant Planet. Walkoff camping is actually kinda bad on the stage, and many chaingrabs are hindered by the slope (you wouldn't think it, but it's quite a few). Circle camping is a funny concept when you think that at any given time, you can either draw a straight line to your opponent, or force them to circle around for half the stage and then do that. Camping under the ledge... This isn't half as strong as many claim it to be. And even then, it gets interrupted quite often for extended durations of time. Calling the bublin a hazard is kind of like calling the right blastzone a hazard on BF-if you run into its "OHKO" function, it's entirely your own damn fault or your opponent really outplayed you.

Green Greens. No comment, I hate the stage and the rainbow glitch seems pretty damn gay.

Port Town. The cars are completely non-random; they run around the track in a set pattern on a set timer. On all but two transformations (finish line and vertical wall), you can see them coming a mile away and even then it's not a big deal to dodge them because you can predict their position, plus , and on all but one (vertical wall), you have two very considerable safe zones. You can either wait the cars out there, or attempt to pressure your opponent into them. One of those is an approach with obscenely high risk that smart players should not attempt. The vertical wall is kind of the problem spot, because there's one spot you play king of the hill for. You either get it away from your opponent, or you're in trouble. But even then, most chars can jump over the cars with just 2 jumps and an upB. If you complain about the cars, you're showing that you have no idea what you're talking about; they are, as far as hazards go, well below Brinstar's lava on the scale of "how dangerous this is in a serious match".

PS2 has nothing wrong with it; so far every argument against it is either based on poor/scrubby reasoning (Yaaay/GAY/Nik/etc.'s arguments) or (falln's arguments against it) is poor theorycraft has not held up to actual playtesting/isn't really a good enough reason to ban the stage. PS2 should be a starter, honestly-it's not only competitively viable but also one of the most neutral playing fields in the entire game.

green green is own :O and yeah norfair weegees and ps2 need 2 be legal

You camp the very very top of it. The moment they jump to the second floor to get in range you run to one of the sides and drop down to get underneath the ceiling on first floor. Rinse/repeat.
In general asking for videos for banned stages is silly though because people aren't going to put up videos of themselves playing on banned stages and once a stage is banned the only people that will post videos are the ones that are working to unban it so saying "there aren't any videos of x happening on a stage so unban it" is a self fulfilling prophecy.



I was honestly not aware that anyone tried to legitimately make the argument that the bulborb was a hazard. If they did then they just need to deactivate their account. I was under the impression that this stage was banned for camping underneath the stage at that little part of the slope, but most viable characters have a reliable way to deal with it so idk. The stage honestly isn't that bad it's just where yoshis go because they want to grab release gimmick you. That being said, I reserve the right to make it illegal should i ever host an offline tourney because it's a gay stage and no one in socal wants it.

Green Greens. No comment, I hate the stage and the rainbow glitch seems pretty damn gay.



Shark shark shark shark shark shark shark

The cars quite simply do too much damage/knockback for the game to accurately be a test of the player's skill. With brinstar, you can make the argument "oh you get to fight while avoiding the damaging lava what a cool concept", but for ptad it's "try to fight but be careful because cars run through most of the stage half the time and if you're not in a good position when this happens or unless you do everything in your power to avoid them you will instantly die."



you wrong mah boi
but rest assured if i ever get the chance in tourney i will pick this stage then stall with meta and make sure the game is recorded then i will send it to you and all the people who think it's a fair starter stage

Break (at least) half of the house. Doesn't take long at all, and allows you to break the circle and the cave. Worst-case scenario, it's a solid counterpick for some runaway chars. Even then, you have about 21 seconds (what I've heard, it may be more) after the whole house is busted up on what is essentially a smaller FD that you can't scrooge on.



Or you could make those vids when the stage is banned. For example, ADHD iirc showed me a video that convinced me that Pictochat should be banned (grand finals match where a guy gets gimped by the stage; you may know what I'm talking about, he's trying to recover from below and the dividing line appears, blocking the ledge. Haven't seen anything like that from other stages people in the more conservative reasons ban. In fact, get this-all of the video evidence is on our side. WE have matches on PTAD, fairly recent ones in fact, of M2K vs. iirc ESAM, which show no real problems with the stage itself. We have lots of videos of gameplay on PS2 that show that it isn't half as bad as you claim it to be, or at least that gameplay isn't as hindered as some would make it out to be. When we ask "show us that Distant Planet is broken" the best our opponents come up with is some video of Mr. Doom vs. some wolf who tries (and fails!) to circle camp him. Green Greens... yeah, you guys kinda have that one, what with the rainbow glitch and all... Protip though: Ook vs. MikeHaze round 3? That's a good match to support the stage. Not ban it.

Furthermore, your case gets even worse when you realize that various regions have not had the same problems you had. I wonder why Texas, a state with some of the gayest stallers ever (DMG comes from there) and many of the country's top or at least very high-level players (Dojo, Razer, DMG, UTD, etc.), still has PS2 legal in almost all of their tournaments. I wonder why parts of ohio are able to run PTAD (and then I see the vids from that tournament showing people adapting to the stage and not really having trouble with it at all) in tournaments. I wonder why you guys have so many issues with so many stages that, as it seems by looking at various other regions, only are problematic:
-If one player is considerably better at dealing with it than his opponent, in which case he legitimately out-skilled his opponent in a fair manner
-If neither player knows how the hell to deal with it.

It would just be nice if you guys could back up your (what appears to be to the outside observer) bad theorycraft with vids.



Some people (the more stubborn and stupid ones) actually tried.



Yeah, I actually have tried quite a bit to camp under there. As Metaknight. Even the goddamn CPUs are good enough to get you out of there.



Shouldn't be that easy for him to grab you on that slope facing the right way.



Now this is just awful and scrubby.



Not as strong as one might think... Especially with no ledges, no upper platforms, and a long, flat, even ground. Comparing it to brinstar again, which we still haven't banned... Brinstar is MILES better for sharking than PTAD.



Okay now I REALLY don't get it. They're completely avoidable on every transformation, they're non-random, they give several seconds of warning on every transformation... The bulborb OHKOs, but you don't see people complaining about THAT. RC kills you by moving around, but no complains there... So they interrupt the "normal" course of battle for a few seconds a few times a match. So what?



There are two good positions. One on each side of the stage. Maybe a snake can keep you away from both at the same time? That would be hilarious. The fact is, if you are in a bad position when the cars come, you were not just outplayed. You were REALLY outplayed, and you earned it! Like getting grabbed by DDD on one end right before the cars start coming-you should know to be extra careful not to get grabbed right now. Also, you're overestimating how often the cars appear. 

The only real problems with the stage are the part of it where the cars come from the right (kind of a choke point, but still not that horrible), and the "fact" that tethers and others have trouble recovering (protip: most of them actually get helped by the stage's floor). PTAD is kind of a polar stage, but it's still legit (and less polar than FD, lol). It's not inconsistent in the slightest (virtually completely non-random), and it doesn't sway nearly enough matchups hard enough to make it banworthy.



Would be nice. I still don't see how you're going to stall the whole match when the stage has at least 4 minutes of time on a transformation that is considerably worse for stalling than any other currently legal starter except maybe FD, which really shouldn't be a starter at all. And even then, I'm pretty damn sure you're wrong about ice. As in, 99% certain.

No one picks Distant Planet besides Yoshi, anyway.

Man I wish I would have saw this earlier......someone cheated me a tourney win by choosing WarioWare.......

Yeah... Warioware is basically the least competitively viable stage in the game due to almost completely inconsistent results.

@Volke: CF apparently loves it there; I imagine Pika would like it a lot too. But overall, is it even that great for yoshi?

It makes his mediocre camping game viable, and the hill actually adds Chaingrab options for him, due to the nature of his Grab-Release. It also does not have anything that hurts Yoshi specifically.

Btw you probably shouldn't test a stage against cpus lol. Since they you know..........read your button commands.

@zebra

Where did you get an idea like that?

Wow something that made sense was posted. I'm impressed.

Is that the argument for anti stalling everything these days? You can't scrooge on it? The 21 seconds isn't enough time to do anything significant (time can be taken to plank while still being under the LGL as well but even if you couldn't plank there wouldn't be enough time). Breaking half the house definitely helps, but even at the best case scenario to stop the circle camping (which would be 3/4ths of the house gone), you cannot reasonably alter the stage in your favor without removing yourself from the fortified position and giving it to the camping opponent.





People choosing not to abuse a strategy on a stage in a video is not a sign of the stage not being bad. I guess you didn't understand my last post about why obviously the vids would be considered "on your side" and why that doesn't mean much. And I'm going to hope that you were kidding about mikehaze vs ook.
Also as another point of all the reasons to ban picto that's a dumb one because that's the one morph that does telegraph its appearance.



I can make that answer easy for you: Xyro.



Alphazealot.



-

I'm not dedicating time to play against some person in a friendly just to prove why the stage should stay banned. At this point stages must be proven not banworthy, not the other way around.





You were probably doing it wrong. Either way I'm not arguing against Distant Planet because the cast that are unable to deal with campers there are the cast that are bottom tier characters anyway.





No. It's not. It's catering to what the community wants. If everyone in socal wanted to make their brawl PR based off of coin matches, then every tournament would be ****ing coin matches. That's how it works.



Upper platforms are a counter to sharking. The fact that PTAD doesn't have one when it's in its air morph is part of why it's so good to shark. The only options the opponent has to me sharking are to
-shield: shield gets battered and eventually poked by uair or rising nado.
-run to the other side: Meta can compensate for his poor horizontal movement by gliding to the general area he needs to be in. The opponent quickly runs out of stage and all dodge mechanisms are punishable by metaknight from that distance (except maybe lucario?)
- Double jump/go into air. Sharker reclaims the stage and gets to punish your landing and you don't even get an edge to rely on.
PTAD is better for sharking than what you think. By a lot.

Thinking that brinstar is a better sharking stage only really highlights the fact that you don't really know how sharking works. On brinstar I have the side platforms/upper platform/an edge to run away to until the lava forces the meta up. On Delfino you can do the same until the stage lands. On Halberd you can do the same with the main central platform until you reach the ship. On PTAD there's no reliable counter to sharking while you wait for the transition.



The cars are not nearly as telegraphed as the bulborb on DP or pretty much any other hazard and you cannot try to reasonably argue their similiarity. Yes, they're non-random, but the fact remains that the punishment for failing to avoid the hazard is too severe for the amount of time you're given to react.



No one's been arguing about the tethers. The only tether based character that absolutely needs the edge to recover normally is ivysaur, which isn't enough to warrant bans on all non-edged stages.

The morph where cars come from the right is absolutely atrocious. Almost the entire stage is covered with cars that cannot be shielded and stay long enough that you can't use a dodge mechanism. Almost every character has to expend their up b or risk dying at this morph, which is a significant advantage to airbased characters (like metaknight). They get stage control and all momentum back immediately, which is more than enough to sway a matchup.

Also "Protip": FD isn't the best neutral for many characters. It's good for ice climbers and falco but that stage doesn't change any matchup to the point where it becomes unwinnable when it previously wasn't. Characters that lose to them still do and characters that beat them still do.



LOL the natural morph for ps1/ps2 is the easiest to normally aircamp out of all the other neutrals. It's not amazing or foolproof, but when the morphs are considered guaranteed time outs, you only have to successfully run the time for half the amount of a normal stage. That's more than enough reason to ban it

Yep, if you lose the lead on Luigi's Mansion, then you're in a little bit of trouble. But it's hardly a broken camping spot, even to the extent that something like Smashville's overall setup provides. I've played several (admittedly wifi) matches there recently, which have cemented my feeling that the stage is not that bad. You can either hold to the highly advantaged center of the house, try to circle camp, or destroy the house so your opponent can do neither. Then again, you're one of the people who believes a stage that helps time-outs for about half the time is banworthy...




Oh, I imagine. But when you have the very top players going to a stage and it plays out similar to gameplay on, say, PS1... When you have the stage legal in a region, you have the region's top TO and top 3 player go to the #1 player in the region who is famous for playing gay, and test it with him extensively and can't find any reason to ban it... The lack of evidence among those who are testing it should be noticeable.



Nope. Why would it show that the stage needs to be banned? It's a great counterpick for DK in the DDD matchup, Ook played it masterfully, and Mikehaze killed himself at the end. If you mean the wall infinites, well... Ook got grabbed going towards a "wall". You have to destroy them first, especially in that matchup.



Really? I'm not too sure about that, but either way, the stage does lead to some noticeable inconsistencies.



Two very smart and generally knowledgeable tournament hosts, for whom I have massive respect. Doesn't seem like a counterargument to me.

Doesn't really answer the question either; they wouldn't be able to silence their players (or, for that matter, wouldn't just go and ban the stage on their own!) if they heard people screaming "omg they're abusing the stage and it's not something that you can adapt to!" But no, I'm less referring to the fact that they are run and more to the fact that nobody complains. The people in regions that run Norfair and Green Greens didn't complain AT ALL about the MLG stagelist; why should they? They're used to it. The only complaints came from places who run ridiculously restrictive stagelists. Now WHY IS THAT? Is it because they're so much worse at abusing stage elements, or because you're so much better at johning about them? This should raise a major red flag. Especially when you realize that at tournaments like MLG, those regionals in ohio that legalize almost everything, and in entire regions like Nova Scotia, nobody has found sufficient reason to ban the stage. Are they (people who went to MLG, people who went to the regionals in ohio that run ridiculously open stagelists, and every smasher in nova scotia) all just ridiculously bad at abusing stage elements? I mean, I know that at least MikeHaze is. I know that ADHD and Atomsk were both ridiculously bad at dealing with Norfair a while back; supposedly that's changed...



Bull****. First of all, that's like saying "Prove to me that you're innocent while staying right there in your jail cell"-how are we going to do it without tournament support? Proving that a stage doesn't need to be banned is really hard when it's already banned (just like we could throw tournament evidence of planking NOT being as broken as everyone says against your heads all day and you'd still advocate cast-wide LGLs because it's the norm and you aren't willing to risk running a tournament with them off).
Second of all, you're forgetting that regions like Nova Scotia, Ohio, and tournaments like MLG ARE evidence in and of themselves. They're running these stages with absolutely no problem, and they are heavy-duty play-to-win scenarios with some of the people who know the most about stages and how to play them and some of the gayest smashers in the world. There's your evidence; they run tournaments with these stages with no problem because they have adapted to them. They are, in fact, so used to dealing with camping on Distant Planet that they wreck anyone who tries it so hard that they won't bother counterpicking it again. They're so used to dealing with the cars and sharking on PTAD that they will school anyone who tries to do it against them. They are so used to the matchup dynamic on Luigi's Mansion that it might as well be Smashville for them. Now why haven't the East Coast and West Coast, who like to consider themselves "the best regions" (lol, TX, FL, OH, etc. are better) done this? Brood got used to "gay counterpick stages" almost instantaneously when he came to Apex from a region that ONLY EVER USES FD/SV/BF (god I hate the japanese rulesets).




Fair enough. It's not that hard to beat, and neither is the circle camping.



Well, there's a difference between running coin matches (changing an in-game setting) and running games with the jap ruleset (banning half of the game's content). But see, this is your invitation to educate first yourself, and then the other players. Show them how:
-What they are doing is wrong from a competitive standpoint
-What they are doing makes them worse in other regions/MLG (MLG is going to broaden its stagelist next year, BTW)
-What they are doing is scrubby.

Show them how to play on the stages (or, more likely, learn it yourself first).



MK has two glides before he has to hit the stage again, one of which is very commital. Beyond that he has a ****ty airspeed. Unless you're like, Snake or something, if he glides towards you, you can get out of his way, unless he was making himself punishable.
 


Fine. Video proof? Would be nice, because to me this is all just lame theorycraft which either hasn't held up in Ohio, or has been shown to be not enough to ban the stage. (I'd cite NS too, but they've banned Metaknight so sharking is far less of an issue)



Once you've seen them for the first time, it's not a question of reaction. It's a question of calculation. And even then, if you're too stupid to calculate the distance/time (this one I won't hold against you, it's a little bit hard), there's still quite a bit of warning and two cushy safe spots. Deal with it.



Oh you have no idea. Quite a few have been, after they realized that arguing the cars is not going to work.



Yep. It's a good MK stage, we got that. Compare to Brinstar, where if the lava rises, you either go to a bad position and have to approach the dair camping metaknight, or you get hit by the lava, then nailed by shuttle loop. I've scored some ludicrously early kills this way. Oh and you lose your stage position no matter what.

The fact is, the stage promotes extremely strong stage control during that point. You HAVE to control that top platform, or you have to have a good air stall of some kind. I mean, if a diddy gets his banana control set up on the ship on FD, you don't bemoan that he has to lose his stage control due to outside influence when the ship falls, do you? No, of course not, because that's part of how the stage works-tediously set-up, long-lasting stage control based on items/positioning is far less useful and has to be adapted to the stage again and again. This is less of a problem than you'd think.



Depends. If you see FD as neutral ground, sure. But I'm willing to bet that if you strike from the whole stagelist, the neutral ground is a stage that, surprise surprise, ICs HATE (because, you know, they hate almost every stage in the game-seriously!). Compared to FD, which is the only stage they don't dislike in a lot of matchups. FD is a HUGE boon for the ICs. Don't underestimate this; it's only not a huge boost for them when the only other stages are SV and FD or some crap like that.



Why? Timing out is a legitimate strategy, and stages that support it (but don't overcentralize it around a certain tactic like circle stages do) are legitimate counterpicks. Plus, the fact that this theorycraft of yours SIMPLY HAS NOT HELD UP TO THE REAL TESTING THAT HAS BEEN DONE!!! Proof or GTFO. Try to convince your TO to test it.

3 year old thread @.@

awesome ! any 1 pvp ?

ook did not play that game masterfully. Good as he is, he made a lot of mistakes and a more experienced D3 would have won easily.