Official Tier list Discussion - old one derailed

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#841
12:44 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
ccst
Somebody's Watching Me
Joined: May 2009
ccst helped a member with a problem.ccst keeps people entertained by hosting fun events.ccst won a Screenshot of the Week Contest!ccst contributed to the Stadium community.

Please just PLEASE prove me wrong with Meta Knight's SL, Ganondorf's Dair and Marth tipper F-smash. I'm waiting already...
And the other ones maybe was an exaggeration (wait, not Snake's U-tilt), but not on light-weight characters. And unlike you -LzR-, I have the guts to admit my faults.
#842
1:47 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Toonblade
War is Over
Joined: May 2009
Toonblade helped a member with a problem.

Tiers are all lies

Yoshi and Game and Watch can KO and Rank damage like crazy, so they need to be ranked higher
#843
2:54 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Phil Nye the SCIENCE Guy
Tons of Damage
Joined: May 2008
Phil Nye the SCIENCE Guy is a troll. Please ignore anything said by this user.
"Troll"

@Frozen: While it's true that G&W has some insanely strong KO power, G&W is horrible at landing said KO moves outside of reading (or if the opponent doesn't know how to tech dthrow lol). Yoshi has some... decent kill moves, but there's some other problems of his that hurt him more (like a defective shield that you can't jump out of and has extra shield drop lag).

@ the whole killing arguent: MK's aerial SL gimp is so 2008, if you know how to avoid it, you'll usually get hit by it, but you'll be knocked to the other side, not gimped. MK's grounded SL is a more reliable killer, but that doesn't happen until like 150% lol. Marth's tipper fsmash is powerful, but you really need an almost hard read to pull it off, imo it isn't as reliable upB oos, bair edgeguard traps, utilt/uair, and nair/untipped smashes (dsmash is pretty situational but actually has some really nifty niche uses, for example if MK hits your shield with dsmash, you'll get a tipper dsmash for punish icon_biggrin)
Edit: People also forgot Fox/Luigi for good KO potential, although most bad foxes are bad at landing usmash/uair because they're really predictable/don't punish like TKD, and Luigi has a hard time getting anywhere, let alone landing a kill (although angled fsmash and jab stuff -> upb are scary good).  Olimar's also a fairly good candidate, purple pikmin are pretty beefy for his kill throws/usmash oos.

@mood4food: Snake while having some fast moves and a good DACUS, I wouldn't say DACUS entirely removes his ground mobility, imo DACUS is more of a reset/punishment tool than a directly approach/space enhancing tool. If you've ever watched matches where snake is generally outcamped (ex. Falco or Toon Link), DACUS doesn't work because projectiles stop it, making Snake veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow in approaching. It is noteworthy though to say that his damage to move speed ratio is pretty good (4 frame move put together -> 21%? Crazy good).
#844
3:11 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
-LzR-
Host
Joined: Dec 2009

Quote (originally posted by ccst):
Please just PLEASE prove me wrong with Meta Knight's SL, Ganondorf's Dair and Marth tipper F-smash. I'm waiting already...
And the other ones maybe was an exaggeration (wait, not Snake's U-tilt), but not on light-weight characters. And unlike you -LzR-, I have the guts to admit my faults.


SL kills at around 130%, if talking about lightweights.

Are you talking about the spike or a vertical killer with Ganon's dair?
The spike isn't going to hit good people and the move sucks anyways.

Snake's utilt kills after 100% if you have the basic concept of DI mastered.

Marth's tipper fsmash can kill below 100%, but that is hard to do and depends on the position.

So a few characters who can RELIABLY kill before 100% and if Samus can't kill before 100% she is suddenly weak?
Actually, Samus doesn't kill before 150% to be realistic.

You were underrating how crappy Samus is in killing.
Quote (originally posted by xzx):
I thought you knew better. You're a MK main after all. I know more about MK than you, lol. SL actually gives that knockback, you can't DI upwards. It gives that gay knockback. Have you ever got hit by that? In that case, the Wario couldn't DI, because it gives that kind of knockback. Facepalm at you, -LzR-.
#845
3:13 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
SMASHKNG
Addicted to Wifi
Joined: Jul 2009

Ganon's Dair can hit when he baits spot dodges or a low hitbox move (like MK's Dsmash). His short hop goes over it and Ganon's Dair is actually disjointed, both horizontally and below him, it has a little more range than it looks like. It's actually not a bad move, though not safe on shield. It's just that it's Ganon who has it and another character would be able to abuse it. But it sucks how fast it stales. It kills at 80% light chars from the ground but loses a lot of its kill power when stale even once. Another important part is how much damage it deals (22% damage, kills offstage almost guaranteed unless very low percents (where some chars may still not survive it) and it combos to other moves at low percents as I think it gives a pretty big frame advantage. While not amazing because its unsafeness on shield, it's NO way bad, thanks to its autocanceling properties.

To Mood4Food. Ganon also reliably kills below 100%, but I don't really agree Wario unless it's from a Fart.

Falcon has lots of bad MUs as well, and doesn't really rape anyone unlike Samus. And Falcon despite his mobility his moveset is actually pretty slow. Falcon and Samus are pretty close to each other, I don't see a big difference between them about how good they are, I think we shouldn't rely so much on theorycrafting. And the grab release Usmash of Falcon doesn't matter when MK pretty much shuts down Falcon's moveset.
#846
3:43 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Devray
Joined: Dec 2010

Why is Lucas so low on the tier list? I may be biased because I like using him. But I see very minimal flaws with his gameplay.... Or maybe everyone else just have more advantages? I dunno
#847
4:03 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
-LzR-
Host
Joined: Dec 2009

SMASHKNG, no one is going to use a move against Ganon without them doing something first, they say his moveset can be reacted to for a reason.
#848
4:07 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra
Sage
Joined: Mar 2009
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Warios fsmash can kill mk around 100-110%ish if its fresh
#849
4:09 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
-LzR-
Host
Joined: Dec 2009

Depending on if it hit from the middle or the edges of the stage. Also that is pretty low and not being able to kill at those % doesn't make your killpower weak.
#850
4:16 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Raysa
Sage
Joined: Feb 2010

Quote (originally posted by Devray):
Why is Lucas so low on the tier list? I may be biased because I like using him. But I see very minimal flaws with his gameplay.... Or maybe everyone else just have more advantages? I dunno

His main problem is that he takes a long time to recover from grab releasing, causing for some infinite GRs
#851
4:17 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
-LzR-
Host
Joined: Dec 2009

Not only that, he has a crappy projectile, crappy recovery, crappy smashes and is easy to kill.
Quote (originally posted by xzx):
I thought you knew better. You're a MK main after all. I know more about MK than you, lol. SL actually gives that knockback, you can't DI upwards. It gives that gay knockback. Have you ever got hit by that? In that case, the Wario couldn't DI, because it gives that kind of knockback. Facepalm at you, -LzR-.
#852
5:08 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Raysa
Sage
Joined: Feb 2010

Quote (originally posted by -LzR-):
Not only that, he has a crappy projectile, crappy recovery, crappy smashes and is easy to kill.

you forgot crappy range =)
#853
5:59 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
-LzR-
Host
Joined: Dec 2009

Well I heard that properly spaced Lucas's fair can beat MK's fair so I didn't mention it.
Also, his range is fine, on the moves that suck like fsmash and PKfire.
#854
6:40 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Raysa
Sage
Joined: Feb 2010

Quote (originally posted by -LzR-):
Well I heard that properly spaced Lucas's fair can beat MK's fair so I didn't mention it.
Also, his range is fine, on the moves that suck like fsmash and PKfire.

yeah, i was talking more his aerials and some neutral attacks than his other attacks, some of them have decent range as you metioned. his aerial range is pitiful however (including zair).
#855
7:11 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra
Sage
Joined: Mar 2009
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

But his fsmash is actually pretty good icon_eh
#856
7:40 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Phil Nye the SCIENCE Guy
Tons of Damage
Joined: May 2008
Phil Nye the SCIENCE Guy is a troll. Please ignore anything said by this user.
"Troll"

Lucas' recovery is okay, it's definitely not anything amazing, but it's fairly good for a low tier's.

His projectile is definitely mediocre, his dair's pretty nice to get a setup for a kill for how bad he is.

fsmash is just kinda bland, it's fairly fast and can kill pretty well, but isn't amazing.  He has a good setup for it though at higher percents (dair 4th hit).

Usmash/dsmash have some nice frame trapping properties, and can do some fun stuff to people waiting on the ledge, but they're pretty situational outside of that.

His biggest problem is probably the Grab release rape nearly everyone has on him, and his below average range (it's okay, but unlike Ness he doesn't have as reliable as spacers, although his nair's pretty good on shield I hear). His close range game isn't too bad, he has some "decent" aerials, but he just doesn't shine very well in many aspects and has one of the most unfortunate mechanics to target such specific characters (Ness/Lucas both get raped by grab releases, especially Marth's).

@Raysa:  iirc his zair doesn't even do ANY DAMAGE lol.  I saw someone mindgame with it once for a kill lol, making the opponent spotdodge on reaction then he dsmashed him or something lol.
Last edited by Phil Nye the SCIENCE Guy, 10:50 PM on Dec 09, 2010
#857
8:03 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Quote (originally posted by Iktomi):
Usmash/dsmash have some nice frame trapping properties


This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Lucas' usmash..a frame trap? What the ****?
http://www.formspring.me/darknid

#858
8:10 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra
Sage
Joined: Mar 2009
Eternal Mangekyo Zebra impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

Well
Non teched dair > dtilt > Upsmash forced get up

Thats about it though.
#859
8:30 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Darknid
Got Lucky
Joined: Jan 2009
Darknid impressed a staff member by doing something smart.

That's not a frame trap, it's a combo.
#860
8:34 PM Dec 9 2010 2010
Raysa
Sage
Joined: Feb 2010

Quote (originally posted by Iktomi):
@Raysa:  iirc his zair doesn't even do ANY DAMAGE lol.  I saw someone mindgame with it once for a kill lol, making the opponent spotdodge on reaction then he dsmashed him or something lol.

i was talking about the tether range of the zair, which often times isnt ranged enough to save him from doing a predictable up b.
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