That's been experimented alot already tho :I

Lol, banning MK is fail.

But aww ****, Ganondorf won a big tourney? =D I love Brawl! Now the melee players are going to be busted (atleast here in Sweden). Maybe Zelda is the worst character... just kidding.

@Schwa: No, Snake will always be the second on the list, but Diddy Kong will always be the third!

@LzR: Yes yes... laugh at us in the forums, but should we laugh at you when we own your MK...?

Vids of that tourney, please? And I bet it was Vermanubis who won?! xD

Nope it was Fonz (he's also really good but he goes Lucario in most tournies he attends) and there are no vids sorry, only this video showing the reaction live during the last match. The tourney wasn't that big and was MK banned but there were still legit players there and not like MK is holding Ganon back.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzjBp1AtaPA
Tournament results: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305979

Aww, thanks SK! =D But still, a Ganondorf winning a tourney is something revolutionery!

Well obviously they still keep arguing with me! =D
And what that post had to do with the tier list I dunno, but you're just as retard yourself, sis. Oh and if you're going to response to this then you should allow me to smile. 

-LzR- seems too quiet today... I wonder why?

At least socal hasn't lost to ganon LMAO

xzx wtf ur mad stupid


and LzR isn't here today cuz he's busy winning a tournament.

I know right? I wasn't even there anyway foo.

Lock this one and stick Zebra's thread.

i personally think that snake would probably drop in 4th place, falco would be 2nd, and diddy should be 3rd. There were some really good falcos and diddys, especially falcos like kaspar, and diddys like ADHD.

trololol

LOL KB if a gannon won in OH i would go gannon and rape u guyz too XD

When I noticed Luigi was several places lower than Sonic I thought: "Wow, this is the biggest load of crap since Zelda became second worst."  Then I seen Diddy Kong overtook Snake.
He has too much difficulty being consistent with bananas unless it's Final Destination or Smashville and his opponent is glued to the ground.  Plus he has more difficulty KOing heavy characters...than anyone.  At least put him below Wario, jesus.

Speaking of Zelda...joke's gone on long enough, guys.

Dedede's already fallen too much.  Come on, Lucario?  His KO power is awful unless he's already losing.

ZSS > G&W is pushing it.  Armor pieces are only around for the first stock and she has issues spacing fast moving characters and hitting fast falling characters with aerials.

Donkey Kong higher than Kirby, yeah.  Kirby's slow, lacks range, and without a copy ability his only way to camp is with Final Cutter, which sucks.

I've long been a proponent for raising Wolf.  This seems more accurate.  Now the same thing should be done with Lucas...and Mario should come up a bit too.  Pokemon Trainer...maybe.  Why aren't there separate places for the three of them?

Drop Ness to just ahead of Bowser.  The only good thing about him is forward air.  Then put Falcon ahead of both them.  Bowser gets tossed around too easily by everyone that isn't Jiggs or Ganondorf.

Toon Link and ROB should be switched.  That'd be perfect for both of them.

Samus...no.  All Ike and DK users must've turned out to vote for her. The three worst characters in the game are, in increasing order, Ganondorf, Samus, and Jigglypuff.  And that's the truth.

I don't play that much anymore and I can tell you that you seem fairly new to the scene

First off, smash is unlike other fighters in that there are other factors when determining tier lists, and its mostly because of stage influence, with this a smash tier list is made based off of match-ups, stage dominance, and tournament results

So to dissect your post, I'm going to be simple here
Look at tournament stuff only for the future

Sonic over Luigi is definitely because of tournament results and a lack of really bad match-ups, unlike Luigi who has a few "unwinnables", sonic has a bunch of 45-55 match-ups that can easily be made up for
Zelda doesn't beat anyone but Ganondorf and has a really bad camp game in a defensive fighter
Ganon is on a whole level a bottom tier, he's basically the complete opposite of meta in that he loses to everyone, especially doing really bad against the tournament characters
Diddy overtaking snake has to do with his tournament results being better as off late, while lacking a really bad match-up, he is also considered to be metaknight's worst match-up, which is pretty significant due to the usage metaknight get
G&w is going down because of how easy it is to DI out of his turtle, his turtle used to be his dominant factor, if you couldn't do anything about it, you got raped, but now that players have learned its super easy to DI, all of his match-ups went from being largely in his favor to only slightly, its a big difference, he also has slow KO moves, while having some pretty bare match-ups to top tiers, pikachu surpasses him because of better tournament results as a whole and doing really well against a lot of top tiers, while he has issues with diddy, he still does great against the rest of them
Sam's and jigglypuff have actual defensive game plans compared to Ganon and Zelda, who can't do anything to a large portion of the cast, while both samus and jigglypuff have bad match-ups, theirs are still a lot better than Ganon's and Zelda's

Doesn't matter if Diddy can't kill if the opponent can barely get in damage easily, his defensive game has improved to the point where he's like one of the hardest characters to get in on (besides Olimar).  He isn't really an aggro character anymore, and his setups into his kill moves are really easy to do.  His rep has also proven how good he can be at top play, if he can semi-consistently beat top MKs (as opposed to Wario/Marth, and to a lesser extent, Snake).

Luigi is great at mid levels, and against people that don't know how to play against him. What sucks is that he doesn't have good ability to approach (he moves slowly in the air and on the ground no thanks to bad air speed and that sliding shield that makes almost everything safe on block). His camp game isn't very good either.

Zelda's the same, except she's even worse at recovering and she gets juggled haaaard.

I completely disagree with your take on ZSS, she's got a terrific air game that makes even MK have to fear when she's below him (you air dodged that uair? Too bad, take another!)

I agree with most of what you said about DK > Kirby, Kirby also has issues killing to me (watch Dazwa v. Chudat to see what I mean) because none of his killing moves are very safe and require pretty hard reads, and the only move that would kill more safely is usually stale because of how useful it is (bair). However, he can zone really well still with bair, which makes up for a lack of a camp game usually.

Lucas is pretty meh (outside of dair setups, he has trouble getting the kill, and of course, that grab release stuff is pretty dumb, especially since he doesn't have a good zoning tool unlike Ness to make sure he doesn't get grabbed as much), same with Mario (although Mario's edgeguarding game is pretty good), Mario feels so stubby to me rangewise, and his killpower's okay, but not spectacular. They're pretty much Low tier imo, and results reflect that.

Also, the reason why PT isn't separated is because the game makes a lot of effort to make the characters have to be played together. All pokemon fatigue after about 2 minutes, making them significantly weaker and unable to play them effectively solo (squirtle would probably be at least B-tier if he was a standalone character), so one often has to be forced to play each pokemon at least once if you're not on Smashville where you can do the quick switch glitch.

I do agree though, Wolf was really underrated all this time, his results have only been amazing, and his MUs with most of the top tiers are pretty good (barring D3, Pika, and Wario). imo we're going to see a lot more of subtle influence from the Japanese opinion of characters in the future, possibly seeing a rise in Fox, Wolf, and maybe Pit/Sheik with enough rep for them.

Ness is pretty decent, his air game is actually pretty good (his nair is fast, his bair is really powerful, his fair is a great spacer, when retreated it outranges marth fair), his bthrow is a great killer since so many people expect to be safe in shield (and his dash grab is pretty good for the job). His only really mediocre department is his ground game, which is okay, and of course, grab release stuff). Why do you think Falcon is better? His range is pretty bad, his only decent tools seem to be jab and uair (although I think his utilt is underrated, makes for great trapping). His air speed is good, but that's about it. Bowser has some good defensive options (upB oos is really good for a LT), klaw is a great mixup/command grab, and his ftilt and fair are good spacers/punishers (ftilt stuffs all sorts of things, fair has a lot of good range), and his grab release gimmicks are pretty good (getting a free ftilt/sideB/dtilt on most of the cast is pretty good). He also has a couple of good MUs, provided he doesn't get uprooted and juggled (like most bad characters). He's definitely low tier though.

Why ROB so high? He's got a really bad underbelly, and his camp game is weaker than TL's. He's got great tilts mind you, but a lot of his MUs are much worse than TL's. TL's only bad MUs are MK and Falco which are still doable, ROB's got pretty bad MUs with MK, ZSS, DDD, Falco, and Fox.

Lucario is actually pretty decent at killing, at top levels of play he often gets it close enough so that even if he loses the first stock he only gets knocked around a bit before he gets the kill (plus he's pretty well rounded in almost every department except in recovering). His results and matchups are also a lot more consistent than DDD, top level DDD's hardly exist anymore because his MUs with MK, ICs, Falco, Pika, ZSS, and Olimar are really bad (imo Fox also has the potential to become a bad MU for him). Also, more and more people know how to fight D3, so he becomes less effective against doable MUs (aka most of D tier or higher), although he still rapes mediocre and bad characters lol.

Samus... is pretty bad, I'll agree with you on that. Ike and DK v. Samus isn't so bad anymore.

Overall, it looks like your opinion seems to derive from older conceptions of the game, because funnily enough, a lot of these characters' positions that you mentioned are where they used to be.

Yes Ness's back air is powerful, but his aerial mobility is slow and deliberate to the point it makes it and down air to an even greater degree very foreseeable.  Neutral air is good as a defensive move but it has no vertical range and is super risky should the opponent have any disjointed attacks.  Up air is good, but it's a bit situational and also suffers due to his floatiness.

You're right about him having essentially no ground game.  His jab and tilts are unusable, except for maybe up tilt, though he probably would be better off using something else.  Down smash...too risky.  Up smash is ok an edgeguard.  Forward smash is too slow.  Back throw is strong, but as I've just described it's by default his go-to kill move, which makes it insanely predictable.

PK Fire is next to useless, PK Flash totally is, and PK Thunder can tack on some damage but that's about it.  An up air follow up is too common to be reliable.

Ness in summation is heavily dependent on forward air, which has low damage output on average and for all practical purposes no KO power whatsoever.



The sheer notion that Diddy is Metaknight's worst matchup is absolutely absurd.  There's no way.  Down smash will punish anything that Diddy can throw at his shield.  Even if he connects something like up tilt he'll be lucky if he isn't immediately hit with down air.  Diddy's aerial game is flat out awkward and after one attack he's desperately fast falling or monkey flipping to get back on the ground.

You did say Diddy's now are being more defensive, but...what are his options?  His toss only goes so far and Metaknight's just too fast and can stay in the air too long.  Yeah they interrupt his special moves and make it slightly awkward for him to recover, so what?  Metaknight by comparison is essentially guaranteed a KO should Diddy need Rocketbarrel Boost.  And EVEN NEUTRAL AIR WILL HIT MONKEY FLIP.

He's way too reliant on using bananas (especially against Metaknight) which again brings me back to saying his banana game is much less effective on anything but the two stages I mentioned (which is my basis for saying Diddy is worse than the Smashboard's current tier suggests, despite you saying I'm not taking into consideration all aspects of his game in a tournament setting).  Even on Battlefield it suffers since it's much easier to pick up his bananas and use them against him.  While he can readily glide toss it has pretty short range, in stark contrast to Metaknight's should he commandeer one of his peels.

Diddy might be second best on Final Destination.  Elsewhere?  God no.



Dedede's defensive game is great.  It's more than just shield grabbing and up tilt.  Down air and back air are excellent too.  He may not be a top five character but he's certainly better off than Lucario (AURA SPHERE AURA SPHERE and more AURA SPHERE)...and maybe Olimar/Pikachu.  Metaknight is disadvantageous yes but he's one of the few characters that can edgeguard MK without it being insanely risky.  Fox...no.  There is no safe way for him to approach Dedede and Waddle Dees easily neutralize his own camping.  I even extend this to Pikachu.  He can attack with aerials a bit better without landing directly on top of him but he has significantly greater difficulty actually KOing Dedede (yeah he's short and up tilt is hard to land but that doesn't mean he can't KO him).  Thunder Jolt is slow for a projectile and for it to actually get over Waddle Dees/Doos he has to be close to Dedede.  Close enough to get forward/back/up aired in the face.



Whether Toon Link or ROB is better at camping largely depends on the situation.  Toon Link can have more projectiles out at once but they do not have the effective range or speed of ROB's.  Aside from that, his shield game is much better than Toon Link's and his approach ability is generally superior as well (Toon Link's approach...bleh).  The main thing Toon Link has going for him is his size, but for a sword wielder his range is pretty awful.  There are characters more vulnerable from underneath than ROB (look no further than the character I'm comparing him to), and this is rarely an issue unless he's forced to recover poorly.
Speaking of, that's my main gripe with Zero Suit Samus. With her floatiness faster falling characters can get below her and back to the ground a lot more quickly, and what can she do?  Stall and fall is not a reasonable option and neutral air would need godly timing against anyone with decent ranged up/forward/back air. Up air is good, make no mistake (besides, Metaknight isn't a great example since he doesn't fall that quickly and his air speed sucks), but other than that, her other aerials are situational and in some circumstances are very difficult to land, making her finish ability questionable.



Sonic is good at stalling...and little else.  He's very annoying to fight but that doesn't mean he's good.  Similar to how you claim Luigi and Dedede's effectiveness has dwindled since people "know what to expect" when playing them, I believe a lack of knowing what to expect amongst the thinktanks of Smashboards has caused this illusion that Sonic isn't total garbage.



As for Bowser I do realize Whirling Fortress is a great out of shield option and he has good spacing ability with forward air, jab, etc but if his opponent is aggressive at all he struggles to regain control where he can be in a position to counter.



I thought Luigi was overrated back in the earlier tier lists when he was > Fox/Peach, but this is too much.  His weakness is in characters that far outspace him, but that's about it.  Yes he can't respond to most attacks by shielding but his sidestep is great and in the same token there are few characters that can comfortably control him oos.   Fireballs are short ranged but force most people to at least jump over them.

His approach isn't as terrible as it's made out to be.  His walk in actuality is pretty fast.  Enough so that's never any good reason to run.  Except on those with huge attack range like Marth and Snake Luigi Cyclone helps get him places quickly and isn't routine to punish when used carefully.

Yeah and fastest forward smash in the game that kills <100% and he's worse than Sonic?  U trippin', dawg.



Zelda isn't great, but she's more around where they originally had her placed.  I do agree on her recovery, Farore's Wind is almost impossible to use without getting hit.  But dude, unless you have HUGE range and space the crap out of her Zelda is no cakewalk to approach.


You're right about Falcon's jab and up air being two of his best moves.  Actually his jab in particular is very underestimated and the first two hits are pretty difficult to punish (negligible damage, but seems to frustrate people enough to make mistakes if used regularly enough).  I didn't realize his up tilt was underrated.  In fact it should be one of his staple moves.  His down smash is pretty good too, and his aerials are all fast if somewhat small in hitbox size.  His range isn't bad at all, it's more due to poor attack speed and general lack of shield safety.  But his edge guard ability is great and it's rare for anyone except the most powerful characters to finish him before 150%.



Lucas's down air is kind of bad actually.  His primary weakness is the bad range of most of his attacks (except his smashes), of which only forward smash can be said reliable.  Neutral air and up air are both very quick though and he's generally pretty difficult to keep up with once he gets to going.  His PK Fire is much, much better than Ness's, he has several techniques for extending his recovery, and even if he needs to use PK Thunder 2 it a lot more workable than Ness's.  So while he only has a few attacks that are particularly worth using, I believe he, when used to his full extent, is difficult to pin down.



Well, Mario, aside from back air and forward smash, his range is below average, but back air alone is all around great move.  Up air is good too if he's close enough to use it, and up tilt racks up damage if he's close enough after landing one of those.  But his other tilts and jab are pretty useless.   Dash attack has surprisingly low cool down but it's unsafe on shields.  Imo, his Fireballs are one of the most spammable and flexible projectiles in the game, after the big 3 of lasers, grenades, and bananas.  They alone greatly augment his defense and approach.  Super Jump Punch is in some ways even better than Dolphin Slash at responding to some things (though with much less KO power).

I actually think his main issue is KOing since his smash attacks are his only good finishers since back air is much too overused.  Down smash is a great out of shield move but is kind of weak against heavies.  Up smash is slower to come out and is a bit less safe on shields than Luigi's.  Forward smash is strong as well being difficult to punish at maximum range (the little backstep when he starts can even dodge some attacks), but the main issue isn't being countered so much as it successfully landing, which can be difficult due to its start-up time.  The Cape...well...it's dependent on the flexibility of the opposition's recovery.


Whether Ganondorf is the absolute worst is just nitpicking, but I'd make an argument a couple others are.  Yes he has difficulties approaching and has no convincing way to get his opponent to come to him - as such he has difficulty landing any attacks.  But you cannot underestimate his sheer power.  He will rape you if he gets the chance.




Edit: Just looked at previous tier lists and Zelda was higher than I expected.  So I'm going to backpedal a bit on that comment.  If I had to pick a particular spot... I think she's roughly equal with Yoshi.  I did say Mario and Lucas should be higher, so that puts her in a tie for 30th.  That's closer to where she is now.  Hm.

have you ever tried grabbing a good diddy's naners? if you do it consistently, then you are not fighting a good diddy, the fact his glide toss is really short allows him to use naner throws as an awesome OOS option, probably the best one in the game since he doesn't have to drop his sheild but can still stay grounded, while he may have poor KO power, his naners set them up better than almost the entire cast, and on final, he's at the advantage against metaknight while also being pretty damn good on the other neutral stages

lucario has fair that works similarly to d3's bair, just not as strong, and the fact that lucario has a usable projectile already means his camp game is better than d3's, lucario also doesn't get raped by pikachu, metaknight, olimar, and ICs like d3 does

pikachu can CG just as good as d3 can, is faster, has a better projectile, better recovery, better edgegaurd, and about the same KO power, while having much better match-ups against everything d3 is bad against

olimar rapes d3, this match-up straight up is retarded, oli has more reliable KO moves, faster, more reach, a retarded grab game, and he outcamps everyone on the ground, oli is obnoxious

ness' back air is pretty strong but you're seriously underrating his bthrow, it kills under 100% AND YOU CAN'T DI IT, cause if you do, you actually die earlier, pk fire is definitely not useless as it can deal around 12% every time it hits and sets up a grab attempt pretty damn well, he also has a pretty retarded dash grab like pikachu, and PK thunder travels pretty face and forces the opponent to dodge it

toon link moves faster, it's why his camp game is better ROB's, he can shoot projectiles at a faster rate and at a lot of different angles, he also doesn't have to mind game someone into using a throw-able projectile like ROB does and his stuff isn't as laggy, he's also not juggled as well, has a better recovery and doesn't get raped as hard by metaknight

sonic runs away the entire time, you can't catch him, it's super boring to watch but it's effective, this game isn't offensive in the least bit so sonic's speed helps him in timing people out, he's like wario but grounded

luigi's KO moves have crap range and he sucks against disjointed hitboxes, while also lacking a good set-up to his KO moves

one of falcon's best moves is his jab, but his jab is not melee ganon's jab, meaning that falcon sucks and should stay bottom five

lucas and ness are way too different to be compared, their PK fires act different and are used for different purposes (so don't compare them), lucas' down air is actually a good move, sets up a lot of things, he does have a better ground game than ness but lucas' overall reach is worse than ness' but a good amount and he lacks the reliable KO power that ness has (basically, lucas not having an aerial KO move really hurts him since he's pretty darn good in the air)

mario has the same issues as luigi except with much worse recovery and having much lower KO power, that's pretty much why luigi is quite a bit higher than mario

ganondorf moves slower than my grandma with a walker, from b-tier and higher, he has like 1 match-up that's possibly 65-35 against him while everything else is worse, at least zelda does pretty well against d3, ganon just gets raped unless you're verm (he's on a different level though)

zelda is 2nd worst in the game, she can't camp, she's barely faster than ganon, her ground KO moves are multi-hit (meaning you can DI out of them pretty well), and her aerial KO moves are either slow (uair) or really scaled (f/bair)

the fact that bowser has fortress means you can't go offensive against him, he'll just OOS you all day, he's quite mobile for a big character and has pretty good edgegaurding, while fortress isn't melee status, his others moves are much better and faster meaning that he can actually compete with higher tiers, he actually goes even with a lot of the high tiers but it's still a slight disadvantage against him or he has just some really bad match-ups (oli, pika, diddy, ICs, d3)

Actually wario can grab diddys naners quite easily.

Z catching is your friend

lol, Zelda doesn't do well against dedede. Her recovery is so predictable and shes so slow and easy to grab. D3 can just b throw and bair her off stage and keep it safe with his jumps, waddles, and f tilt. Dedede can also camp her easily with his waddle dees.

As for the lucario statement, they pretty much have the same camp game, but Dedede has more to his camp game if you get lucky. Also Lucario gets raped by mk too and Dedede doesnt get raped by pikachu, Dedede can play safe against pika and it's hard for pika to kill dedede.

Well, let me just tell you that Dedede actually does good/decent against like half of the top cast (He rapes Wario and Lucario) (He can do pretty good against Snake, Marth, and even Diddy). Dedede looks like he can be a decent counter for Diddy since Dedede uses a lot of air combat like peach, has good traction, he's hard to kill which is one of Diddy's weaknesses is killing, and Dedede can combo Diddy Kong pretty good with chain throws and using his bananas. Dedede can also punish Diddy's somewhat slow recovery with his bair and can chain grab him pretty easily if your smart enough to catch him.

Also, King Dedede can play very defensively and safe against most of his bad matchups (A good one being Falco). Dedede can just use his jumps to avoid chain grabs, and can make some use of his fair and uair on the edges.