I want to discuss(get this thread back on track) Brawl's metagame vs Melee's metagame. I think the metagames of Brawl/Melee have a wide variety of similarities and differences. Melee's metagame of course changes based on character, but still has one common factor, wavedashing. Wavedashing is a huge part of Melees metagame and a reason some competitive players prefer Melee. Brawl seems to have a common metagame based on strong characteristics/variations of certain characters. Example: characters that can DACUS have metagames built around them. One great combo of Sheik is the grab release into DACUS that IZAW always dose.  IZAW also utilizes Link's DACUS and builds his metagame around that. Snake's unique projectiles and disjointed hit boxes shape his metagame, but his amazing DACUS completes it. DDD is a very slow character but still is in the higher tiers, this is due to his strong attacks, projectile/charge hammer(sry dono the proper name...) metagame. It seems like Sakurai and staff added many more character variations to develop a deeper metagame. Even I think this is strange. After reading articles about how Sakurai wanted Brawl to be a easier experience for ALL people(basically downplaying competitive play) and adding tripping...Ugh.

Whenever I watch competitive play of Brawl and Melee it just seems to boil down to Melee being of high technical skill and combo mixups, while Brawl is a slower more defensive and deeper air combat game. In Melee the fall speed is a lot faster than Brawls floaty gameplay. In Brawl you stay in the air longer, but can dodge multiple times adding to what I think is a deeper air combat experience. In Melee it seems like the person in the air is usually getting combo'd. I found it much harder to just consistently juggle my opponent in Brawl. I don't want to bash Melee or Brawl, and have actually put Brawl aside to regain my Melee skills. I love both games and what they each bring to the table. I hope this discussion will be a good way to pass the time between now and SS4/U's release. I also believe this can be a good educational thread that will reveal some major differences between Brawl and Melee for better or worse.

In some more simple combos like up air strings or something, there is A LOT more going on then just jumping and pressing up air... You goda predict a lot of DI, use a lot of spacing, cancel everything. It's not all automatic lul mode like it feels your trying to make it out to be. Ken was just really good at this.

Also, wave dashing is a lot different to DACUS... DACUS can only up smash, which a lot of times is REALLY easy to predict, while in melee wave dashing is more for helping movement and spacing.

Melee just can't be "boiled" down to any sorta set game play, there is too much depth and too many different styles to say it's mostly tech and combos.

Very true! I didn't really mean ALL of Melee was only tech and combos, but more so that the pros excel in those areas and direct the game play to play out that way sometimes. The Ken combo was very much skill and time, I mainly used that video to show fast Marth can be at the highest level. When I say Melee was more combo based I'm taking that from the fact that the combo options in Melee are much more vast than in Brawl. The DACUS mention was to point out that Brawl dose have some momentum manipulation like Melee but on a very different basis with only a select group of chars that can DACUS. I'm simply comparing the two games and pointing out some slim similarities and differences.

I've been reading a lot of character wishlists for the next smash and it seems like many encourage clone characters. In mostly any list you will see 1. Bowser jr. 2. A toon version of Ganon/Zelda 3. Another Sonic the Hedgehog character who would most likely share at least 3 or 4 moves with sonic, not saying I wouldn't love Knuckles Do you want very unique different characters like Olimar, DDD, and Snake or do u want some clone variation to your favorite characters? Post the 3 top chars you want in SS4/U!!!

1. Young Link(with the 3 masks)

2. Ridley

3. Megaman

But I think just cause there are more combos in melee, and more options while in them, doesn't make the game just ABOUT the combos. If you think that way in melee you're destined for failure. EVERYONE knows how to combo now. It's more about spacing and opening them, like in brawl. Just it's more fast paced with more altering.

To be less of a **** though, I do just want one character kinda bad. Tom nook. ^_^

HAHA I had to look up Tom nook(didn't know who he was) and he would be a halarious character, I scratch my head at what his moves would be though....anyways I see what your saying about spacing and its true spacing has always been a huge part of super smash, and every fighter to date.

Melee is more focused on offense(better than just saying combo'ing) because of L-canceling and the generally lower lag time in between attacks compared to brawl. L-canceling makes approaching a character attempting to space you away from them much easier. Its much harder to punish a L-canceling Bowser or any other character with considerable air attack lag than it is in Brawl. I just want a happy medium with SS4/U but I dnt know how you could give defensive play buffs or just make defensive players, like Bowser, better and even the offense vs the defense. Any ideas??

I could probably find a Gimpyfish combo video demonstrating fast Bowser combos as well.

Combo videos are generally supposed to be fast, the overall speed of Marth's zoning and spacing though is average.

That video wasn't really a combo video, think it was tourney, hence the stocks and commentary. The only question I pose is if Marth's zoning and spacing are so average why dose he stand toe to toe in the tiers with Fox and sheik? If i really wanted to pursue this discussion I would look up some attack frame stats....but yea.


Through playing Melee and Brawl I randomly have noticed the characters movement on stages in Melee seems much smoother. I know its kind of nit-picky but I even noticed that characters, attacking off the edge coming towards it, seemed to always land how i wanted. In Brawl many fast falling characters seem doomed to fall through the edge when attacking it, Link, Fox, ect. Idk if any one else noticed this but Melee's movement or Brawl's? Which did you enjoy? I personally enjoyed Brawls running momentum to a point.(besides annoying running up smash's) Did you?

Marth has a sword OKAY?!

Marth frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285324

Fox frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285177

A few of Marth's moves are slower, but a lot are near identical in frame data.

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Melee isn't strictly offense. You can play pretty defensive with Peach and Jigglypuff. You can also camp with Fox, Marth can be played patiently, and Falco can spam lasers. Brawl is a very defense oriented game. Probably the most defensive game I've played. Power shielding is really good and easy Side stepping is so safe and spammable, it makes me sick.

Thx 4 the stats! I just hope the new smash will make characters that are even more truly defense oriented and others like Fox offense oriented and make sure they are balanced accordingly. I really like the idea of almost labeling some characters either defensive, projectile user, fighter....ect. I think this would help balance the game out easier and prevent random character like MetaKnight and DiddyKong that have strength, speed, and high priority.

Brawl was a great game but I really hated how it seemed like they had to give all the new characters flying, crawling, wall sticking, ect. but nerf the veterans. Link was a great character in Melee but wasn't unbeatable, and still received a sizable nerf on many attacks. Honestly its pretty hard to list a veteran character that didn't get nerfed from Melee. I hope Sakurai realizes this and either recreates the veterans or buffs them, maybe even adding some unique abilities/characteristics from their new games.

PS: Skyward Sword Link FTW!!!

I already said that it isn't just movement and attack speed. The pace of Marth's game is a lot slower.

You would have to actually play the game at a competitive level to understand what I'm talking about, but no one on All is Brawl does.

all the smash games are the same,KO your opponet out of the stage

That's like saying "all traditional fighters are the same, you drain their health pool". Really wrong.

but their attack speed is fast. and have pretty good priority

one reason that makes melee more difficult than brawl that i don't think anyone mentioned yet is the frame rate. Melee is 60 frames/second and brawl is 48 frames/second. A very significant difference.

If it has mario in it,it's cool with me.

This is all we needed to hear. Topic close.

Melee combos are not all inescapable. In fact, many of the combinations do not work at all perfect theorycraft play. Close combat is not really so much "faster" than fight. Unless you kill 50% of all early and rapid.

Well... We all know the answer to this title...

Lol at bowser being hard to punish.

Idk Melee is good because you're doing more things faster, and combos look cool.