I disagree, D3 imo is an old trick that while is still solid, does best as a wall to shut out bad characters. Coney, the last D3 to reach a top level game, was still limited by the fact that he could not beat top level MKs. Lucario has at least taken sets off of/won against good MKs like Atomsk, Tyrant, Lee Martin, etc.

Plus the results don't lie, especially over an extended period of time. I have never heard of a D3 beating a Falco, so while it's theoretically doable to what people say, I have to look at who grossly outcamps and who outdamages, that's a MU that to my perception, is borderline countering to D3. Pikachu is to a lesser extent, although I'm sure ESAM bodies CO18 whenever they play.

I totally disagree with DDD v. Diddy, people really, really underrate Diddy's camp game nowadays. It doesn't work against characters that have a semblance of a projectile (like Lasers or whatnot), but against characters with poor or no projectile camp game to speak of, it's really hard to get in on Diddy, and Diddy's punish game isn't even really read-oriented, it's almost reactionary how he can play (pretty broken imo), his shield options are so good just because of what a banana throw can do. It's a pretty even MU in my opinion, Coney said it was in Diddy's favor before he quit. Also, D3 could have an air game like peach, if he:
-had an aerial that was completely safe on block and could effectively pressure at any given time (peach fair)
-had a good gtfo aerial (dair/nair)
-had better air mobility (he's got multiple jumps, but he doesn't have the space control Peach has with floating)
Overall, D3's aerial game is more of a traditional zoning kind, but it's also more of an edgeguarding type (bair is really good at bodying recoveries for lots of damage, I can give it that).
I have also seen a positive record in Diddy's favor against D3 from Gnes, Lie, Felix, and ADHD. Bananas stop CGs pretty well as does Diddy's overall camp trap (banana in front, holding one while using his popgun). I probably have a little Diddy bias because we have a really nasty Diddy player in our region (Felix), but that's how I see it.

idk, I have a hard time believing D3 is all that great when I live in a region full of them and get some close games with characters that he's supposed to "body". I even got a really close match with Seibrik's, which is supposed to be pretty good. He's imo the kind of character to round out and stay near top of B, maaaaaaaybe bottom of A when MK is gone, but he's basically there to make sure no crazy low tiers that happen to have decent MUs with MK make it out .

Snake and Marth are pretty even I will say, Marth might actually be in D3's favor, it seems really hard for Marth from what I've seen. That being said, there's still a lot of good characters that beat him hard/borderline counter him, because in the MUs that he does have to approach, it also sucks that his only big things are like dash/walk -> shield mixups, spotdodge, and bair walls, with the occasional swallow/dair. All of which are pretty doable for characters that camp him hard like Olimar, ICs, Falco, etc. Not to mention MK is like one of his worst by far, and borderline unwinnable.

So, Wario and Lucario are bad characters then?

I don't think that dedede just beats mid and low tier characters. Wario and Lucario get raped by Dedede and Marth and Snake seem to have somewhat hard times with Dedede.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree about what you say. For Diddy, it looks like it can be improved for dedede so it ends up being more dedede advantage. The matchup seems pretty even and looks like Dedede can improve on that matchup.

MK is a huge threat to Dedede. MK pretty much shuts down all of his options (Air, Stall/Planking, and Chain Grabbing), His safe ground game being the only available option against mk. MK can also take the advantage on a lot of dedede's weaknesses like juggling, heavyweight, slow speed, and predictable recovery.

I think Dedede can go back to the top tier is Meta Knight was banned, he seems to be the hardest thing for Dedede (A lot harder than Falco, Oli, and Ice Climbers).

What can DDD do at all against Diddy?

He already sucks at approuching and he's pretty much FORCED to because diddy can easily rack on the damage if he lands even ONE naner hit on him. DDD is like combo city to diddy seriously. DDD just has to rely on trying to trick diddy into thinking it's safe to glide toss towards him and punish with a bair or shield grab or something. He's pretty good at gimping diddy but that's it.

Wario's good, but I don't think D3 rapes him. It's very stage dependent, as long as it isn't FD/Picto, it's an even MU.

And while D3 may have the advantage on lucario, it isn't rape. Results don't lie, especially if Junebug/Trela have beaten pretty much every top D3 that they've come across (Vex, Coney, CO18).

Although I do agree that D3 could go up significantly if MK is banned.

Well, Dedede doesn't have to approach on thr ground and doesn't have to be on the ground all of the time. Dedede can just air approach so he can't get combo raped by Diddy Kong. Also King Dedede can do a lot on Diddy with the bananas like infinite him. Also when Diddy uses the down b move, Dedede can rush in and get a grab before the bananas get in and if your in a position where a banana is in the way, Dedede can just b throw him to end the combo.

Wait what?

DDD is no threat to Diddy in the air if Diddy is on the ground. What can he do? Diddy can just react to everything he does. And you do know it's entirely possible to hit ddd in the air with a naner then z catch a naner on the ground easily starting a combo to the ledge which he ends with dsmash?

And no he can't infinate him with a naner. Where did you get that? I know that technically everyone can infinate diddy but it isn't practical at all.

And you know diddy can just jump and toss a naner. Unless you play stupid diddys he isn't just going to throw a naner out when DDD is close enough to punish. If DDD is far away he's to slow to do anything about it anyway. Diddy rapes DDD in just about everyway in this matchup.

Yes, Dedede rapes Wario and yes it's pretty stage dependent. It's not an even matchup on Yoshi's Island, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Delfino, RC, and the Pokemon stadiums. Dedede can slope infinite Wario, which gives Dedede some rape cps on Wario and Dedede can set up some followups with his air release. Dedede can even control his release options (You do an air release when you dash grab and you do a ground release when you stand grab or pivot grab.

Dedede rapes Lucario also. Dedede can infinite Lucario on slopes, due to Lucario's very high traction, Sheild grab lucario, good followups, can punish Lucario's recovery pretty good, kill him easily, and can punish Lucario's rco lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc_Fn2h0YwU = The infinite

Well, Dedede can use waddle dees against Diddy, he can also use a banana on Diddy if he has one, orhe can land with a bair on Diddy.

I'm not really sure what this matchup is, but I don't think it's too great for Diddy Kong, as of now this matchup looks pretty even to me. Both can combo each other to a cool extent.

Okay who give a crap about slope infinates? They aren't practical at all so why does it matter?

I have yet to see it used in high level play in the matchup so it doesn't really matter please don't use it as a argument. He can do a small step cg but it's better just to cg wario to the edge and release him.

I'm not saying wario doesn't lose but the reasons you gave are completely wrong.

Wario loses to DDD because he simply can't use his normal approuch methods against him. DDD's bair walls him off and if he makes a mistake when he gets close to ddd he risks getting grabbed and having a bunch of damage racked on him. However Wario does have one advantage. Coney has said warios best option is to time DDD out and that is very true. DDD can't approuch wario safely the best he can do is shield approuch which wario can rape easily. Wario has alot of combo options on DDD as well. These have all been tested and work.

Bite > grab > Fthrow

BIte> Bite > Dacus

Dair > uair

Dair > Dair > Uair *of course this one it is technically possible to di out of but it's pretty hard too.

It's a hard matchup yes but wario isn't helpless just because of grab release.

That's what i was talking about. And just because it's used once doesn't mean the matchup has changed. And aren't those japanese players? Diddy wins this matchup bro 

In my opinion, it looks kind of hard for Wario to time out Dedede since of the lack of having a lot of good projectiles. Dedede can actually camp Wario with his waddle dee and keep him away with his f tilt. Also Dedede can time him out pretty easily by using his mid air jumps and camp Wario out with his Waddle Dees. I was able to time out a Wario and it can be pretty easy. Wario also has predictable options he uses on King Dedede like Dair, Bite, and Nair. For some stages, they have slopes where you can infinite Wario on like Yoshi's Island and on there, it's pretty easy to get an infinite on there cause it has a lot of slopes. Also Dedede has a killing advantage and out ranges him with a lot of his moves. Dedede can up tilt and up smash out of an air release.

I also never said it was helpless, I just said he rapes Wario (By like being an advantage or hard counter, not almost impossible for Wario ). Wario can do some cool things that you mentioned, but Dedede has a lot more he can do.

I'm not really sure, I wasn't so sure what this matchup was and it looks pretty player dependent.

9B has a really good D3, I love watching his.

Also, define "rape", because your definition seems to differ.   Advantage =/= rape.  Lucario camps D3 hard, and no, outside of dthrow -> buffered usmash (which I have yet to see D3's do), Lucario is actually pretty hard to kill for D3.  Bair doesn't kill until about 130-140% with good DI even if fresh, and no, it doesn't gimp (does it do a lot of damage?  Yes, but not gimp).  Lucario has a hard time landing a kill on D3, but can dance around shield pretty well with dair and fair mixups (FH fair and spaced dair are safe on block at almost all percents).  And with Lucario's new frame 1 FP, this makes it even easier for Lucario to kill D3 at a normally tricky time when D3 can normally shield all of Lucario's normal kill options.

Also, Wario can time out D3 really well, ask Masky.  He plays that MU quite a bit.

What do you mean by Lucario's frame 1 FP?

Lol DDD can't rely on timeouts.......................at all xD

i feel like pit is pretty good for laggy wifi so if they made a tier list for that he might be higher. idk

Read the first page please

When Lucario buffers a FP coming down it comes out on frame 1 by the time he lands.  It's a great kill option because at high aura, Lucario's FP is stronger than Ness' bthrow at times (which is infamously strong as a kill throw).  It's something kinda new that works well for Lucario's harder MUs like D3 and Snake when they'd normally block all your regular kill moves (outside of getting them in a juggle trap, of course).

What does FP stand for?

He can rely on timeouts sometimes because of his 4 mid air jumps, though not too much.