EDIT
Lets take a final look at all ratios! Do any seem incorrect???

Character                             MU Ratio                     Recommended MU                CP Recommendations         
Meta Knight                      40/60                                  Sheik                                               FD
Diddy Kong                       45/55                                  Sheik                                               BF, HB
Snake                                45/55                                 Shelda                                             FD,HB
Falco                                51/49                                 Sheik                                              FD
Marth                               45/55                                  Sheik                                               FD, SV
Wario                               55/45                                 Sheik                                               FD
Ice Climbers                    30/70                                   Shelda                                             BF, HB,PS1
Olimar                             40/60                          Shelda                                             BF, PS2, FO
Pikachu                                     30/70                                   Shelda                                             BF, SV
Lucario                            40/60                                   Shelda                                              FD,FO,HB
King Dedede                     45/55                                   Shelda                                              FD,HB
Zero Suit Samus               45/55                                  Sheik                                                FD, SV
Mr. Game & Watch           40/60                                  Sheik                                                FD, SV
Toon Link                         50/50                                      Sheik                                                BF
Fox                                  80/20                           Sheik                                                FD
Wolf                                 65/35                                   Sheik                                                FD
Peach                                        40/60                                   Shelda                                              FD,HB
Donkey Kong                           50/50                                       Shelda                                               FD, BF
Kirby                               35/65                                    Shelda                                              FD, BF
R.O.B.                              40/60                                   Shelda                                              FD, BF
Pit                                   55/45                                    Sheik                                               FD, BF
Sonic                               60/40                                    Sheik                                               FD, SV
Ike                                   60/40                                    Sheik                                               FD            
Zelda/Sheik                       45/55                                    Shelda                                             BF
Luigi                                45/55                                    Shelda                                              PS1, FD
Sheik                                >9000:1!!!                              Shelda                                               Pick your best 
Ness                                60/40                                    Sheik                                                FD                                
Yoshi                               55/45                                    Sheik                                                BF,HB,FD                             
Pokemon Trainer              60/40                                    Sheik                                                BF,HB,FO
Lucas                               70/30                                    Sheik                                                FD, SV
Mario                                55/45                                   Sheik                                                FD,BF  
Bowser                             60/40                                   Shelda                                              BF,FD, FO,
Samus                              60/40                           Sheik                                               BF,FD,HB                        
Captain Falcon                  60/40                                   Shelda                                              BF,HB
Link                                  70/30                           Sheik                                   BF                 
Jigglypuff                          60/40                          Sheik                                    BF, LC,HB
Zelda                                55/45                          Shelda                                   BF
Ganondoff                          80/20                          Sheik                                    FD, SV, BF


Summary (In construction)

Match-up Spread

High Tier
Mid Tier
Low Tier
Overall

Average Ratios

High Tier
Mid Tier
Low Tier
Overall



Partner Recommendations

Tl: Dr (keep in mind mk is soon to be banned)

Guide to Match-Up Ratios

The first number represents Sheik; the second number represents the opponent's character. 50:50 is an even match up. Higher numbers show an advantage, and, naturally, lower numbers show a disadvantage.

These are not percentages. 40:60 does not mean you will win 40% of the time. It simply means that Sheik has a definite disadvantage, and you will have to outplay your opponent to win.

50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

Brawl Back Room Match-Up Ratio V1
 
-3:
-2:
-1:
  0:
+1:

+2:
+3:
+4:

How to read The BBR Ratios

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

We need more Sheiks lol. If this does get going, I can give most of the views of myself and Judo since we're doing the BBR MU chart.

im a sheik main from ontario and probably best on ec ( due to MASSIVE LACK of sheiks lol)
but hey still counts =P i have a chart of my own to be quite honest but i know i will be wrong about some MUs which is inevitable but me <3 you and Judo lets bring this stuff back!

Sounds good. I can also provide some input on the Zelda side of MUs if transforming is being discussed.

imo NEO's another good EC sheik, if he ever gets back in this game (most people besides EC don't know about his really good pocket sheik).

I do lol, hey wait...FL is east coast lol. WE FIGHTING!!

j/k, also that's cool Linkz. Me and you will be able to provide good insight on the Zelda side of things.

im from Canada so i guess i wasnt clear on which EC id love to travel to the states for tourneys though

side noteee to get this started reccomend we start working our way from the bottom of the tier list and up. Maybe working on 3 at a time to create a MU discussion. Of course if you have a MU you really wanna start lets go with that =)
So this time let us discuss ....Ganon, Zelda, Jiggz.
Imo the Mus are as follows but before i describe why i would like to hear your opinions
Ganon- 70/30 Sheiks favor
Zelda- 60/40- Zelda favor
Jiggz- 65/35 Sheiks favor

While discussing 3 at a time would get us through the list faster, I feel it wouldn't be as accurate as if we discussed each one at a time. That way each match up gets everyone's full attention.

Oh lol, I consider Florida more of the South (although it's pretty much EC too lol).


I gotta disagree with those.  I think Ganon is worse than that against Sheik (70:30 is more like Ganon v. Lucario where ganon has at least some punishes to lucario's aerial pressure or if he rolls, which is a common tool for Luc), although all-in-all, at the end of the day, it's still a bad MU.  Ganon doesn't have a reliable answer/option to:
spaced ftilts (not to mention tilt lock goes for a really long time on Ganon)
chain camp
sheik's gimp/camp game (in fact, if you time it right you can fair or nair Ganon if he grabs you w/ upB b/c of the lack of hitstun afterward, and can end his stock pretty early)
Ganon also doesn't have many good shield options against Sheik's shield pressure, his shieldgrab is atrocious, and the only thing he can really punish you w/ is uair/dair out of shield (or jab/DA if you did something more laggy lol), and if you use bair to space makes it hard to do reliably (and if you utilize Autocanceled fair).


Sheik's juggling game is also really good on racking damage v. Ganon, although Ganon luckily can do some good damage back to sheik if he manages to get her up in the air. 

Sheik v. Zelda is not in Zelda's favor.  Zelda's only big advantage is anti air, and that's hard to utilize when you're forced to approach (sheik's needles outcamp Zelda's din's fire).  Zelda is also really juggleable, and has a very vulnerable recovery.  She also doesn't have very many fast options when being pressured in her shield, so once sheik gets in, it's pretty good (although her bair out of shield is really good if you try to cross up on her lol, gotta be careful about that).  If zelda's trying to space you with smashes, just get pivot needles going or DA for missed smashes.

Jigglypuff v. Sheik is a bit more like 60:40 to me.  Jigglypuff can't get exposed or juggled badly like these other characters because of her good air game and air speed, her edgeguarding is actually decent which means sheik might take some damage getting offstage, and she has aerial mobility to make her able to space better (she also can't get tilt locked for a lot of damage).  Normally, Jigglypuff would be more worried about her light resistance to KO, but sheik is almost as equally fragile.  We win because of our anti-air via utilt and ftilt, and our needle game, but it's actually pretty decent for Jigglypuff imo.

@linkz: that's a good point, Zelda is sometimes an option that's very useful in some MUs for several things, and can make some of sheik's weaknesses in a MU lessened (like if she's against Pikachu and doesn't want to get CG'd to death).

I can come to agree with Jiggz and Ganon, i was actually thinking ganon a bit worse
But zelda i think we need more opinions. Imo Zelda is also evry underated and their are many pro zeldas i play who have shown me zelda has the advantage over sheik due to priority. I initially though 55 45 in sheiks favor .
For jiggz i would of said even more in sheiks favor but i was being conservative since jiggz does have some tricks. But sheik out prioritzes, avoids all kills and can easily outspace with bair and as sad as it is for jiggz, even fair lol
Revised
Ganon- 80/20- seems to agree with ganon boards and us
Zelda- id say 55/45 but i believe we need more input
Jiggz- 60/40 - being conservative
(all sheiks favoor)

Also we can start going one MU at a time after these if you all agree so we go more in depth as needed.

Yeah, that seems more of what I would agree with, I think other sheiks think similarly (at least the good ones). I ultimately want to hear what Ed thinks because he uses both Zelda and Sheik really well.

Also, what do you mean by "priority" exactly? I understand that usmash and iirc fsmash are transcendent, but priority is nothing new to sheik (I mean, Snake v. Sheik feels close, and Snake has lots more disjoint/priority with things than sheik does). Most of the time Zelda walls work against people that don't understand the properties of her moves, you gotta stay grounded or wait for the whiff, sometimes if you wait it out on block you can get in a boost dash grab on it afterwards and send her up into the air, and wait for an opportunity to get her juggled (basically, usmash mainly works only if you keep approaching her from the air, fsmash is a matter of understanding how many hits are in it since many people drop their shield too early or don't react to it fast enough, it's also relatively easy to SDI). Her naryu's is decent as a defensive option because of the initial beginning invincibility and slows her fall to mix up her landing a little bit, but it's still an easy option to deal with.

The main thing Zelda has going for her is kill power, and a really good anti-air option (and some really good rewards for hard reads). That's largely it, and they work really, really well against aggressive sheiks that don't space and bait those options out first. Sheik's pressure comes a lot from just being in mid range waiting to punish whatever the opponent misses with, this is as important a "zone" for sheik as the close range zone is for her (but this is often the one most people confuse as her only good zone, when in fact it can easily become her weakest when not developed carefully, since this is where CGs and juggles are often started). Zelda is no different, you either want to wait her moves out carefully, or when she's up in the air or in a pressured spot, harass her and get up in her face.  Zelda also is a little better on wifi because of lag and the more prediction-centric playstyle wifi makes.  Oh yeah, and if you're able to outcamp her, she has a really, really tough time approaching (she basically has nair, AD, and some sideB/naryu gimmicks).  She gets some good damage from dtilt locks/strings, like multiple dtilts -> dsmash, but once that happens, it's all about how many mistakes you make in the MU.  One thing that is going for her is that we can't tilt lock her effectively, that makes our tilt lock less of a raw damage racker and more of a juggle starter/poke.

We used to have a couple of good Zeldas in our state/region, Maos and Tudios (before he quit for Samus/Ike, he's kinda our low tier person).  I also got to play Ven's Zelda at Genesis 2 (they were friendlies, but still).  She's intimidating, but not super hard when you understand her weaknesses better.

55:45 sounds agreeable, but I do think it's in sheik's favor.  To be fair, I'm probably not giving Zelda credit where it's due, but being the character I use for LTs aside from Ganon, I always feel like I'm hoping they don't know how to play against her, because she feels like a legitimately bad character.  She's got some awesome gimmicks which make her fun (like farore ledge cancels), but she feels like as soon as she loses her footing, she becomes really vulnerable.

Her fsmash among most tilts seem to shut down most of sheila approaches not to mention her weight class gets her out of ftilt combos. Zelda is very underRated die to her lack of representation. I use her in tourneys but not very often since I do prefer to find new creative ways to kill with sheik. But I won't go to in depth with Zelda since I'm working on sheiks game at the moment. Also since you mention it I think snake sheik is a closer mu then most think som e ive even taken games of very high level snakes including ally not much but hey it's a very playable mu. I'll wait a dayish to confirm these 3 then we can move on to 2 at a time of you guys want. We can always update this As time goes on if we see the need to review mus.

I disagree entirely. As a Zelda main, I can definitely say this MU is in Zelda's favor. The only thing Sheik has over Zelda is speed, and even that's irrelevant for a fast paced Zelda like myself. When properly spaced, and as horrendous as Din's Fire is as a projectile, Zelda can hold fairly well in a camping war against Sheik's needles; don't forget Zelda also has a reflector. Good Zeldas won't have to worry about shield pressure from Sheik, as Sheik is fairly simple to lock out. Sheik's ground moves have plenty of cooldown, enough for Zelda to act if her shield is hit. Also, if Sheik does manage to get in, knocking her away is fairly simple.


No, Zelda's a bad character, she's not underrated. Lol.
Also, I'm not so sure on that Zelda has more priority than Sheik thing.

This next post I'm going to dissect since it's pretty long.


In today's date, most people have a decent understanding of Zelda's moves. It was early 2010 and before when Zelda's moves really weren't understood by most. Boost dash grab? Incorrect. When I'm playing Sheik, dash grabs are probably some of the things I'm expecting most of, so I'm already ready to counter. As for when Sheik gets me airborne, it's a simple matter of clever air dodging, fast falling and clever usage of Farore's Wind.


This is wrong entirely. Nayru's is not a good defensive option in the least bit. The invincibility only applies during frames 1-4 rendering them pretty useless. No Zelda is going to use Nayru's to slow a fall, and if they do, they shouldn't be playing Zelda since there are MUCH better options to mix up a landing.


You just can't get carried away when being "up in her face," since she can easily rack up damage and punish if Sheik screws up or gets careless.


LOL
LOL
LOL

No.


You can't exactly lock her at all. Zelda can't even be chain grabbed.


Ven isn't exactly a Zelda I'd use to compare to. And a good Zelda won't let her weaknesses slow them down, even if the opponent knows them.

As for a ratio on the over all MU, I say either 45-55 or 40-60 Zelda.

Id agree with 45 55 Zelda's favor kinda a in between for both. 40 60 was my initial instict but I think If both players know the mu it would slightly be Zelda's favor ergo 45 55... Now that being said is everyone in an agreeable state for these 3 mus?

Lock out?  You realize that sheik's aerial mixups are pretty legit, right?  If she's spacing that ftilt, you can't grab it, you can't punish it with a smash or tilt, you've got like... nair and air dodge lol.

This is Super Smash Bros. Brawl, not "Zelda's a good character".  She has a reflector, but that thing is so ridiculously baitable, and Din's cannot effectively force an approach (you realize that it clanks with almost every aerial in the game, right?  Plus how are you going to pin Sheik down to tack it onto her when she's so fast on the ground?  You gotta get her in the air or offstage pretty much to get it going).

Knocking her away?  I wasn't aware Zelda had any good gtfo in the air, does she have a luigi or peach nair that I'm forgetting, or a strong, long range zoner like Marth?  How exactly is she suppposed to stop getting herself juggled once sheik "gets in"?



Wow, something we can agree on.

btw, priority is more or less a hugely misunderstood concept.  In Brawl, the general rule of "ground priority" is if two hitboxes come together at the exact time, one of three factors go into play to determine the "priority" of a given move:
1. transcendence/exceptions (MK/Lucario/laser priority, stuff that doesn't clash, or stuff like Olimar's pikmin)
2. 10% rule (if your move does 10% more than the other it's interacting with, it will completely negate the other move, unless you mistime.  If they are within 10%, it will clash)
3. hitbox + hurtbox relationship.  If your hurtbox is extended, and their hitbox hits it without yours hitting theirs, it will override.

Everything else is a matter of timing.  Aerials and specials are different, but w/ aerials the general rule is that unless it interacts w/ exceptions like pikmin, or specials, it will overlap, no clashing involved.

Zelda has a couple of smashes w/ transcendent priority, that's about it.  Her tilts/jab are generally a bit on the short range side.  Sheik's not great in the department either, but she at least has safe pokes, and good punishes for almost anything whiffed.



"clever air dodging"?  "Fast falling"? use of farore's wind?  Half of these are gimmicks, Zelda's fall speed does not lend itself to be great landing material, Sheik has juggling/landing traps up the whazoo (utilt, nair, dsmash, jab, needles, ftilt all cover most of these options really well).  Farore's is a gigantic gimmick, if it had invincibility at the beginning or end w/ less wind-down, I could see it being a viable anti-juggle, but faroreing down is asking to be shieldgrabbed, and away?  DACUS or needles can cover that no problem. Sheik juggles characters like Marth, Diddy, Ness, Toon link, and others pretty well, and they have better options than Zelda (and better characteristics like better aerial mobility to boot), what makes you think Zelda's AD and fastfall/farore's going to give her a significantly better chance?
Oh, let's not forget offstage, Zelda may be able to shoot for Din's on sheik, but between the two, Zelda's recovery and offstage options are a joke.  Let's say you get offstage against sheik, how are you going to fend off her gimping tools?  You have no real challenge to her bair, her needles are very good at either tacking on damage or forcing Zelda to use her jump, and her recovery is pretty abysmal (sure it has distance, but it has little in the way of making it without taking damage in the process).  Planning on hitting sheik's edgehog when she's run out of invincibility?  re-tether to regain invincibility.  Landing back onstage?  Time for a ledge drop aerial or get up early and get a smash in.  Sheik's recovery is very vulnerable too, no lie, but I see sheik winning in the edgeguarding department between the two.



I guess Ed, Riot, Ven, etc. are all booty and shouldn't be playing Zelda.  Trust me when I say I am sugarcoating when I say "decent".  This is Zelda we're talking about.  It's not a truly reliable option, it's a mere mixup, but it's one that gives you some breathing room sometimes, and catches the opponent off guard (since a lot don't know how it draws the opponent in the direction she's facing).  This is in no way a sure-fire way to deal with good juggling or poking, but the fact that you can Jump cancel it from shield makes it have some flexibility as a gimmick.  There are plenty of moves in this game, btw, that have a similar amount of invincibility, that are very useful (MK's shuttle loop has even less and it's still really good).  Most upBs w/ that invincibility are only like 1 frame longer lol, and several low tiers still have upBs that have even less, and are still effective to stuff things on block or the like (Zelda doesn't need this as much granted because of her JC usmash, but it's still a nice feature to stop people behind/in front that hit your shield since her other options are pretty slow or don't have a lot of range lol).



Look at this face, does it look like it said "get careless"?


I said to be patient and wait for when she's pressure or not in her optimal circumstance.  If she throws out a bad poke, or a bad mixup, you gotta punish that with dash attack, bair, or boost dash grab (DA canceled Grab, it extends her grab range a bit more than a normal dash grab).  Or even chipping away at her w/ needles for whiffing a move works.  If Zelda's getting enough room to space lightning kicks while getting juggled, the sheik isn't juggling correctly.


In the context of Sheik v. Zelda on wifi:

LOL
LOL
LOL

Yes.  Thank you for providing a good argument for this, btw.  One-liners are the best, aren't they?
My rebuttal:
Sheik is a precision character, characters like Marth, her, and ICs are much worse online with lag, where you have to predict every punish instead of reacting.  Characters like Lucario, Zelda, and Snake generally do better because of those massive hitboxes, it takes out a lot of guesswork (especially when lag makes you prone to run into them/drop shield earlier more often).  It makes it much harder to punish mistakes of theirs online when you don't have powershield, good spacing, etc., and you have to predict them and punish lol.


Duh, redundant, but agreeable, this helps so that sheik's damage will only come through punishment and juggling, no high reward matchup changer here.  Sheik doesn't even have a CG lol (except maybe the air release boost grabs on MK and some others).


Ven is admittedly very inactive and this inhibits him from getting good, but he has often been on lists for good Zeldas.

This logic is very ridiculous, it's very easy for me to say the same thing.  "A good sheik won't let her weaknesses inhibit her, even if the opponent knows them".  The difference is, one's more limited in stopping the opponent from exposing her weaknesses, guess who it is?



I can't say I'm hugely knowledgeable on the MU since I've only picked up sheik sort of recently (by that I mean within this year lol), but I can say safely that if you were to talk to Ed, Fuujin, or mostly good Zeldas that play in an actually good region or state, or actually are acknowledged as good Zeldas (I'm sorry, I haven't really heard of you before, who in Missouri/in your region that you play is a regional/national threat again?  I've only heard of like... Fino lol).

Ed, care to give input?  I'm sure you've run into at least a couple of sheiks with your zelda, and you know both really well.

Whatevs though, I'm arguing over a 5-10 point difference lol.  I think it's close for a character's caliber like Zelda, but I think both of you haven't really looked at Sheik's overlying strengths as a whole.  I'll settle it if it means continuing, although at this point I'm a bit afraid of subsequent ratios.

Hmmm, I'm actually surprised there's never been that much matchup discussion regarding Zelda vs. Sheik, even on Smashboards. I have yet to play a really good Sheik player, though I've played a couple of decent ones (both online and offline). None of them ever really gave me that much trouble, except a couple of gimping here and there.

On the subject of Sheik's f-tilt and locking, I think what Linkz is trying to say is that Sheik can't consistently f-tilt lock Zelda for long as she can on heavy weights like Ganondorf and Snake. Since Zelda is a light weight and very floaty, she tends to get out of it after a few hits. The problem is that she has to be careful with the follow-ups of f-tilt, assuming the Sheik player can use them before Zelda is able to get away from the lock, or read Zelda's air dodges. On wifi, Nayru's Love is actually a decent GTFO move when Sheik starts f-tilting Zelda.

Nayru's Love in general is meh against Sheik though, since, as it was mentioned, it's baitable and has a long cooldown. Good Zeldas won't bother to be using this repetitively as a reflector, unless they predict a pattern for when Sheik throws needles. They'll be using this either as an alternate move to hit behind her for when Sheik is up close (sparingly, so that she doesn't get predictable), or the classical Nayru's Love Jump to help aid recovery.

Zelda's tilts may not be the best thing in the world, but when used correctly they can either kill ridiculously early (up tilt), or combo/set up (down tilt). Sheik is light, and usually dies from her up tilt pretty early, even stale it has killing potential. The problem with this move is that it's slow, like her f-tilt. Her f-tilt (angled down) can also be a set up move at early percent, into an upsmash, nair, or back air. At higher percent, it can be a set up into an up air, or it can even kill sometimes on its own. Zelda's down tilt at early percents can be used as a combo/set up starter and can be followed up with just about any move. Her down tilt at 50 percent (especially fresh) can be used repetitively, and once you start to SDI it, she can follow up with a down smash or almost any other move of her choice for a healthy chunk of damage. At higher percents, Zelda's down tilt can pop you up into her upsmash or up tilt.

And um, Zelda on wifi is lolz. If you're playing a typical wifi Zelda who doesn't know anything but the c-stick and side b, then yeah, it can be frustrating, but once you have her figured out, that Zelda will likely be getting 2 or 3-stocked. If you're trying to use Zelda like an offline character, THEN it makes her harder to use on wifi. You think Zelda's not a precision character? Try spacing her lightning kicks, her nair cancels, and other aerial cancels. Try mistiming her recovery in lag and miss the ledge or ground (as in falling with her up b instead of going directly to the ground), try randomly air dodging off stage because of lag because of some badly timed input on trying to pivot grab near the edge. Try fighting Olimar on wifi. I could go on. <.<

Judging MU ratios based on one or two wifi Zeldas isn't exactly the best way to get a more clear perspective on the MU. Ven is actually one of the more active Zeldas on wifi atm, but again, basing your experience from playing only one player? No lol. You also have to take into account, not just different players, but how comfortable they are with each other's MU's. A Sheik who knows how to fight Zelda vs a Zelda who doesn't know how to fight Sheik can be an obvious flaw, and vice versa. It's important that both players have a good, general knowledge of how each other plays. I'm sure Ed can provide some input on this, as he uses both of them well.

Since I haven't played enough Sheiks, let alone ones that impressed me, I'm not yet going to provide a MU ratio, or say who I think has the advantage. I believe both characters have annoying options to use against one another. Sheik with f-tilt, jab, and her pressure with f-air off stage can have Zelda take damage quickly, and even more so each time Zelda is forced to recover (unless Sheik misses the punish). On Zelda's end, she can outspace Sheik in some ways with f-smash. Her down tilt can put Sheik in unfavorable positions for combo'ing and kill set ups, and overall, Zelda can kill her early. Needles aren't broken, but they are annoying to deal with, and can cause Zelda to approach, which is where Zelda struggles with.

We both agree on that, it's why sheik doesn't body her lol.  In fact, fun fact, sheik has a hard time ftilt locking snake because grenades after the second ftilt (although I think you might be able to buffer the ftilts to make it frame tight, I'd have to check it out on frame advance sometime). 



Yep, this person sounds more like an objective analysis.  Needles while not the best camping tool, are still overall a better camp tool than Din's even with a reflector, mainly due to utility and how easy it is to cover a landing option/chip in more damage w/ them.  Naryu's is by no means, like you said, reliable, especially when predictable, but having some invincibility and some hitboxes that cover both in front and behind make for a decent option in case Sheik gets a little too overwhelming and doesn't respect your defensive options.  Love jumping, while not so useful in this MU onstage, helps a little with recovery because of that jump, I can agree.



Yes, Zelda's dtilt does string up some good damage, and makes for a good poke, this is why it's close to even and not easy for sheik.  It's one of her more reliable punishers for the MU when she gets close, but since it doesn't have a good amount of range, it's hard to use beyond punishing or if you cross up on sheik.  



Point taken, I just don't see her being harder than Sheik who needs to space things, use mobility (which is harder to do when you have to deal with big hitboxes and projectiles you can't powershield or dodge as easily in lag) and to have each of her punishes spaced to avoid getting murdered by her inherent weaknesses.  LKs are pretty "read heavy" to begin with, so I'm not concerned with it being a total changing factor once offline either.  I hardly play wifi personally, but it seems to be the case for more of AiB (and I know kongmetal plays on wifi, saw his matches), so I was inclined to say that wifi changes the MU, especially when you can't do things like get your pivots, DACUS, or tilt spacing to be on point (vitals for sheik).  I say this with the stress on relativity, I can think of a billion other characters that are way better than her online, but I see her being better with lag than sheik (who also gets her recovery messed up by lag).



I didn't play Ven on wifi though lolz, I played him at Genesis 2.  I can say he at least knows some of the MU because he plays Z, who has a decent pocket Sheik.  None of the other zeldas I mentioned use wifi, they just happen to be "okay" Zeldas that I play more consistently (which is why I don't say they are my biggest resource at all, just a little bolster to how I perceive zelda's weaknesses and strengths).  I mention one player, who people can recognize as at least remotely good, while several people in this thread mention nobody and just accredit it to some theory play?  The double standard is clear here.  I want to personally hear from Ed because I'm sure he's played at least a couple of sheiks w/ Zelda and probably vice-versa, and I know he's really good w/ both chars.



There we go, I really appreciate this synopsis.  I'm not trying to get across that Zelda is countered by sheik in any way remotely because Zelda's strengths really play on several of sheik's flaws, but I keep hearing this resounding "Zelda has a definite advantage, Sheik's only got speed", and I have to say "lolno".  That and I keep hearing these notions that Zelda is really good despite her ridiculously limited play in several situations (as if having something everyone has immediately qualifies a character to have good anti-juggling capability, when she has nothing else practically).  I may sound "extreme" and give off the impression that Sheik 70:30s Zelda or something, but it's merely pointing out how flawed some of these options and things can be.  I also think Sheik is much more in the caliber of a highish mid-tier ever since NEO taught me a couple of things about her, seeing Judo and some EU sheiks use her really well, and after Earth showed me a couple things at Genesis 2 at our hotel room haha.  I think Zelda's going to hit harder in this MU, but sheik is going to be overall more consistent, and to me being solid makes for a better formula for success than something that requires a little more chance and reading, because otherwise characters like Lucario (yep, bagging on my own main), D3, DK, and G&W would be much higher instead of chars like MK, Falco, Diddy, and Marth (of course one can find weaker examples of this, but I think ultimately reading is more of what happens against a player, not a character, which isn't something that's really relevant in character v. character discussion).

@Linkz: I saw a couple of videos, I concede that you are an okay Zelda (in some MUs, the match v. that one meh marth wasn't very good).  I still disagree with you though

so ill take all that as a yes to the MU ratios.... Ive been asking around some zelda players to see what they think and they have come to a census between 45/55 - 55/45 so they say its pretty close due to the above walls of text you guys stated above. Assuming BOTH players know what their doing i would like to stick to current MU ratio of 55/45 for sheik since it is clearly playable by both but ultimately sheik can outcamp zelda due to speed and needles since dins fire if interrupted (by needles which wont be too uncommon)will force her to approach leaving sheik in a better position.
On a side note im glad to see some activity back to these boards just for that one MU (who knew zelda would cause a huge MU debate, not that im complaining)
So in short is everyone in acceptance of these MU ratios?
55/45 sheiks favor against zelda
60/40 sheiks favor against jiggz
80/20 sheiks favor against ganon

Yeah, 55-45 is not bad at all lol (that's "near even"), Zelda will probably like this MU more often than not because it's very rare and a lot of sheik's weaknesses are in fact very workable by Zelda's tools, it's just that sheik has a few more scenarios that she wins in over Zelda (both juggle fairly well, both damage rack fairly well, one just has a little less of an offstage game and less pressuring for approaching).  I just don't think sheik has just "speed" over zelda or a distinct disadvantage fighting her.

I also think it would be a good idea to list stages (maybe in a different thread) to take a character to, and which ones to avoid/they'll counterpick us on.

so, we're on Link, Captain Falcon, and Samus?  The last two have imo some really interesting things to bring to the MUs imo, like Samus actually has a good zone tool (zair and missiles), and has a legitimate gimp game that sheik has to worry about, and captain falcon has come good close-range options, and decent-ish aerials (uair mostly).