****, sorry for not being so active lately guys been really, really busy. Looks like I gotta catch up lol.

^ lol its fine we all get busy =)
Also keep in mind guys these ratios are for tourney style play. In tourney most sheiks will play mega gay and ftilit the crap outta fox
Anyways i guess it is leaning towardsss
fox 80/20 (thats me being generous lol)
Wolf 65/35 i would say 70/30 but his shine helps him outta ftilit death
peach 60/40 this mu is definitly playable but even when we are in her face she outprioritizes us and can get out of most stuff with nair and stuff =( but i guess we have to get bad mus eventually right? Otherwise we would be top tier (sheik clearly should be =D)

Next discussion, Toon Link, G&W, ZSS. Im enjoying the 3 at once lol Also we need to get this done before BBR!!! We can dooo itttt =3 Alright as always my initial predictions ( which i must say have been more accurate than even i thought lol)
Toon Link 55/45 sheik favor --> kinda feel like i might get some rebuttal here
G&W 40/60 booo
ZSS 45/55 for zss ill be honest i don't have much experienced zss to play against but from the ones i do play its definitely playable

I think we go even with TL, but it's defintiely a hard MU (almost every MU against TL is frustrating except maybe if you're MK where tornado cuts through like 90% of his stuff lol), but it's basically a bid for who's more patient.  if you're coming down and a boomerang is about to get you, it's sometimes better to fair/nair it instead of trying to Air dodge and still eat it.  learn the timing of how early you can put up shield after a dash, you'll need it to powershield a lot of his projectiles.

G&W, I think we lose to, but it's not bad. 40:60 sounds about right, although I can see some sheik doing some work in the MU to make it 50:50 or close

Zss I think we actually barely have an edge over (not by much), merely because needles just screw with almost all of her air game, if she spaces sideB, just laugh and reverse needle, it's almost as good as Falco's lasers except we can't force approaches as easily as Falco's. It's basically a match of who juggles who, as soon as ZSS gets uprooted, Sheik goes to town, and vise versa, except Sheik has a stronger ground game. The only thing to watch out for is ZSS' dsmash lock from 0-60%, it does a lot of damage within that range of percent, but unless you're on the ledge with limited options, you can usually avoid this fairly easily with your speed. Usmash works pretty well in this MU since ZSS loves to be in the air often, if you can time usmash to beat AD mixups falling down, you'll be pretty set for killing in this MU. Be careful around ZSS bair, it's very powerful, and if you're sent up in the air, expect to get juggled for a good bit b/c of uair lol (although FF nair can help sometimes). Her jab is annoying, but just know to DI away from it, and you'll be able to punish if you're quick enough, she'll use it sometimes for landing interruptions though.

I play 2 ZSS', and while they're not anywhere near NR's/Salem/IKKI's level, they're pretty decent overall. It's a very fun MU once you learn how much stuff you can lock down with utilt, dash attack, and needles

Ed, do you play Nick Riddle often enough to know this Matchup?  I know Nick Riddle's playstyle really hides a lot of ZSS' weaknesses, like a meh ground game (he's really good at switching it up and being really patient).

Yup, me and NR run fairly close to even. Some reason, he really dislikes my playstyle against him. We can't Ftilt ZSS all that well and early damage we have to avoid Dsmash like the plague because she can rack up to 80 damage in one string of Dsmash iirc. It sucks.

We can crouch under a lot of her bread and butter moves like DA, SideB (middle area), jab and something else I can't remember but this allows to avoid some of her best moves with minimal effort and we can punish right away. It was already said but needles rape, so throw a lot of them.

Phil, you actually covered a lot of things so I really don't have too much lol. Umm, avoid suit pieces and ZSS Utilt because it's so good. Lastly, in edgeguarding situations against us, ZSS can DownB punish if we head to the stage so be careful.

what are you mu ratios? just curious

Yeah, I feel it's straightforward, if you're on the ground, you generally win, if she gets you off the ground/offstage more often, then you're going to lose. I think of it like the Snake v. ZSS MU except where snake does a bunch of powerful landing traps, sheik does a lot of aerial/utilt juggles on ZSS.

@Ed: is it uair? It's a move they like to use sometimes for a punish, and since she jumps so high, it's usually hard to hit on some characters even when they aren't crouched lol. Or maybe it's grab, I know I've avoided that move sometimes by duckiing lol (then again, it has a blindspot in the middle too, although it's harder to exploit).

Tink: 45:55 in Tink's Favor, he can camp the living **** out of us. But the MU isn't too unplayable really.
G&W: 40/60 He kills way too early, and he can live decently long with that bucket of his.
ZSS: 50:50 Surprisingly I feel this is even, up close we can actually do some good damage on her, and needles out space her whip and her laser, and obviously don't use needles up close. Can be gimped decently if you can use needles offstage well, then not terrible. That downsmash lock that she has on us (I think?) can rack up damage, she's quick, and can kill. Even in my opinion.

Ive discussed the MU with peopleeee
sooo far looks like..
50/50 tink (mjg thinks its pretty even) I mained toon link when this game first game out and eventually began to second him since i picked up a bunch of new characters. But from my experience anyone who has enough speed and a semi decent projectile can get up in tinks face which really just shuts him down. But he does have more kill moves and a descent edge guard game which seems to make this even.
40/60 gaw favor-> seems like we alll agree. need to mindgame those dacus' in and try to kill early.
40/60 Zss - asked around, zss board says 65/35 for zss which is starting to make more sense. She racks up damage much quicker than we do and can avoid juggling pretty decently thanks to her weight and down b. Her dsmash just racks up way to much damage to make this mu even, since ftilit cannot make up for it.

She's actually surprisingly tilt lockable if it weren't for her downB, her weight/susceptibility to getting tilted is sorta weird (it's mainly the fact that most of her moveset doesn't cover underneath her all that well, which is weird for a character that's so good in the air), but because of downB, it's a guessing game (which is ok, ftilt -> utilt/dsmash is already like 19-21% lol, or a throw for more juggling afterwards)

I have to respectfully disagree, personally, from what I've played, it's 45:55 at worst, I haven't felt it was super hard until I get overconfident and get punished by dtilt/uair.  It might be 40:60 or worse if she had her suit pieces the entire time (or if you're playing 1/2 stocks instead of 3 lol), but after that, ZSS' ground game is only as strong as your well read mistake.  You've got excellent shield pressure on her, especially since her punishes on block are slow/unreliable, and your speed makes it hard for her to get a dsmash lock.  Needles also help soooo much, if she decides to use the air more, space with dash pivot needles, if she starts staying on the ground to do more shielding/dash attack punishes, use more of your air game (or still stay on the ground lol).  The japanese matches of sheik v. ZSS is how I feel it seems to be, it's like ZSS gets a lot of momentum from suit pieces, but once they're gone, it's go time, and it sorta evens out haha

Oh yeah, I'd dare to venture and say if you know how to use chain, I would try using it on ZSS near the ledge, the only things that really beat it is that long distance "flip-hop" that goes across like half of FD (if you don't hit them with the chain), and >100% ledge getup attack.  Chain camping can do a looooooot of damage, as long as you don't let him ledge hop -> spaced sideB.

We have a similar problem with snake, we can't properly tilt lock him because he can pull a grenade out before the next tilt, but it's still a pretty decent MU for sheik minus the fact that Snake hits harder much more reliably (3 ftilts/couple of dthrow reads pretty much equal the amount of damage ZSS dsmash lock does, and it's waaaaaay harder to avoid snake ftilt than it is ZSS dsmash lol).

It's funny that ZSS boards say that this MU is 65:35, considering they have an even more powerful dsmash lock on fox but go 40:60 Fox's favor with him.  I figure we have similar advantages (we force the approach more consistently, really good anti-air/air control, strong really fast ground game, all of which help make dsmash really hard to land on a good player with these characters), except the fact we don't have as strong of killpower which sorta evens it out.  We have essentially the antithesis of ZSS' weaknesses, which is why it's so good on paper, we have quick access to shield for turtling her, great anti-air stuff (especially on landing), and strong shield pressure on the ground.  It all helps even the odds, and make it really tough, but the problem is, one mistake and you usually lose a lot of that momentum (a lot like Snake does against ZSS)

Oh yeah, and a very trollish move to do if you want to really punish a grab/jab/SH uair-happy ZSS?  autocanceled fair -> crouch, then if they start using dtilt, go to jab afterward instead (fair at a certain height gives you almost no lag, like on par with peach fair).  I basically treat playing your shield pressure game against ZSS like Olimar, only ZSS has a bit of a better recovery and stronger air game.

Also, according to Nick Riddle, he says it's even/+1, so I guess you did work Ed lol

The ZSS boards claim 65:35? What?

That's really odd, considering the earliest opinion I heard was Snakeee claiming it was Sheik's favor 60:40, and once Nick Riddle became the new best ZSS it was never worse than a very slight advantage for ZSS.

Plus, compared to ICs/Pika where you don't have a lot of safe moves to avoid the CG (which either kills you or almost kills you if you're lucky), ZSS' dsmash lock only works until like 50-70%, you can DI up and buffer shield to stop it after that.

ZSS MU cannot be anything more than 55:45 in ZSS's favor

lol so much controversy in zss mu... im leaning towards dcolds opinion though
55/45 zss

alrighty next mu discussions King d3 lucario anddddd pikachu (this might be a bit rough)
As always my predictions are....
Lucario-40/60 lucarios favor
D3- 50/50
Pika-30/70 --- fff that cg

Those numbers seem accurate. Pikachu might be worse.

Yeah, sounds about right. If you really want to alleviate from the Pika CG, you can switch to Zelda until you're out of the CG percent, then use sheik to be awesome (Sheik also has a guaranteed air release -> DACUS on pika, but it isn't the tipper unfortunately ).

45:55 for D3 mu imo, played a D3 the other day, played the way I usually used to play them, will not work. Try approaching a smart D3. Can't needle because of waddles getting in the way, if you ever hit his shield, you will be punished, he can gimp and kill us at decently low percentages. If you find a way in, you can rack up damage, and punish his upB recovery, like I said, getting in is tough, which is why I put it in his Adv even though no CG. But if you can get in, it can semi-make up for it

Yeah, it's probably 45:55 solo sheik, and even if you transform to Zelda for the kill, since zelda actually does decently at that aspect of the MU (although fighting D3 outside of the kill's... okay, but I'd rather play using sheik for that).

If you hold up and buffer and air dodge after his dthrow, you'll land on your feet with your shield up, but then D3 can just regrab you again instead of tech chasing.

You have to play extremely smart with your approach game. Waddles are not actually a good thing for D3 to use all the time, the lag of the throw's enough for sheik to punish with either full hop lagless needles, or dash attack from shield if you're close enough (or if they spaced badly you can go in for a grab). I would highly recommend memorizing the spacing and landing timing for autocanceled fair, if you do a non fast falled one retreated, you can often make him whiff a grab while walking away (it's sorta a technical thing, but it's doable), also ftilt if spaced on the veeeeeeeeeeeeeery tip is ungrabbable, but this is really hard to do. Basically, if you cross up on his shield, and he hasn't bair'd you out of shield, you're in a really good position, so this is often what you'll want to go for. Always play fakeouts and baits to make him think he can grab something, because that's his most laggy move he'll use besides like ftilt, which isn't usually good against sheik besides for catching a landing lol.

One of the stages to avoid imo is Frigate, it's a bad stage because of Sheik's meh recovery and D3's edgeguard game.

well that went pretty dang quickly!
Ill give this anotehr day for more ppls opinions
cough ed cough