oh... if that's the case, then sure, I wouldn't mind see that concept return... perhaps as consolation for controllers that can't do such a thing, it could use one or two shield buttons for each one respectively. perhaps that way it can leave a little more...ahem, "wiggle room" for the Wiimote in the future, knowing it'll return as a control style.

besides that, I'm recently looking at the final smash and considered what it could perhaps do with other aspects it could effect. perhaps if it ever gets a level 2 or better integration into other aspects, that it could be used up supercharging summon items. on Pokeballs it'll increase the chances of getting a powerful legendary pokemon, but should Assist Trophies be supercharged, it could summon characters exclusive to the summoner's series. for instance, while Shadow is possible for everyone, an assist Trophy from Sonic could unleash Hyper Shadow who rains Chaos Spear on the stage or uses Chaos Blast to deal out greater damage than a smart bomb. I could come up with plenty of examples, like Summoning Omega Ridley for Samus, a flying and tackling caped Baby Mario for Yoshi, an Arwing attack from Team Starfox for Fox and Falco (and likewise for Wolf, though with Star Wolf's Wolfens), and perhaps a generation's set of mascot Legendary Pokemon attacking the stage for the Pokemon series characters.

but besides that, it could really make Summon Items a great deal more strategic if done well.

lovin the items idea that would be awsome.

how do you feel about double wielding items. of course it can only work for a few like

beam swords (you know you want it)
fan (over powered much?)
home run bat (no thats over powered.)
ray gun.

that flower thing i forgot what its called lips stick or something?

this could be really OP but since the competitive community doesnt play with items we might as well have this for fun.

I can agree that dual wielding items can be neat to see, though besides Beam Swords, I'd like to see the ray guns and super scope being used as well. and yes, it's called Lip's Stick (though I wonder how many people say Lipstick by mistake).

perhaps to kick things up a notch, characters who summon doubles of certain items, like Diddy Kong using both his popguns or having two bananas, Snake pulling out two grenades, Link with double clawshot (mid-air only. on the ground, it'd be the most broken chaingrab possible unless throws were modified specifically to avoid it for all weight classes)

odds are, an idea to dual wield items probably might not work, and if you think about it, it would kind of make sense why. I mean, shoot, all sorts of broken combos can happen in casual matches that are guaranteed to cause ragequits: like Deku nut/Pitfall and a Bob-omb, a fan and then a thrown Homerun Bat... the possibilities are wide, and equally as rotten to use. DK probably wouldn't have any trouble dual wielding hammers like DDD does with a hammer and his mallet.

I'm reading that other thread that asks if CPUs learn from you... and now suddenly, I'm wondering if it CAN be possible to have computers learn from players.

think about it, Brawl will record the very button presses that players push in order to do replays, if Computers could be given the ability to adjust to said button presses, it could make reaction training a great deal more vigorous. granted, they'll also learn how to get around Mindgames and certain tricks, but imagine the workarounds one could learn...

most recent Idea I've just came up with, more like a shout out to various things. I've considered the idea that in the event extra powerful super attacks, that instead we aught to have hidden ones somewhere in a character's controls. should a character have a Smash Ball, and when they do a certain something and the glow disappears, it means they triggered a hidden special attack or boost in abilities, and I could think of quite a few. like Mario's powerup taunt could suddenly make him MEGA MUSHROOM HUGE AND POWERFUL at the expense of barring his smash attacks (for balance reasons), or perhaps if Pit were to hold onto his arrows until it automatically shoots, he suddenly finds himself shooting hundreds upon hundreds of arrows minigun style... perhaps if Link charged a Spin Attack to maximum, it would not only hit multiple times, but perhaps do a small tornado effect that's sort of like MK's mach tornado. Pikachu supercharging his attacks with his "Charge" up taunt, or Sonic Charging up to attack a specified area with the Light Attack.

I've got plenty of ideas for these cameo super surprises, if you want me to list a few more, let me know.

^Hey, I'd like to see taunts being used as a gameplay mechanic.

Look nice ....


___________________

Discount Ergo Baby backpack

^I like this guy.

In the next SSBs:
Another Subspace adventure game.  This one will be expanded and also have secret levels and bosses that you don't have to fight to beat the game and are super hard.  The levels should be more like the great maze and Metroid maps with alternate routes and connections to different levels.  Items that appear should be relative to the level or area. 
More of the bad guys should fight closer to how characters fight.  Primids could be grabbed but then auto-throw would activate; in the next they should be able to weakly block and have more variation in how they fight.  Also the characters should be able to do to minor enemies everything they can do to other characters.
I like the trophy-sticker power-up system.  the coin launcher is fun but it takes forever to collect every sticker.  I'm missing 4 stickers and 1 trophy still (without using any hacks or hammers ).  An additional sticker shop where you can buy specific stickers but for higher prices and only when they've been unlocked would be nice.
A saved item like in Super Mario World that could be activated mid-level or on the map is good.

Multyman
SSB>Melee>Brawl>next SSB=Polygons>Wireframes>Alloys>Cybers which are more advanced Alloys with more types.

VS mode
Stages: more interactive.  Which isn't only more breakables, there should be things like on pokemon stadium the changes could be activated by hitting a switch for enough damage as well as randomly.  Stuff like that.
More stages but keep them so every character can win on them.  In other words most but not all stages should be tourney viable; some should be crazy though

Characters: Above everything else, in the next SSBs make it BALLANCED!  Which means the programers etc should do a ton of gameplay testing and not include gimmicks or a new system element if it isn't balanced.  In my player's guide I got when Brawl launched, MK and Ganon were rated EVEN with 6/10.  Marth had the highest score 9/10.  It wasn't well tested or balanced well except in theory.
I like the more traditional controls and move system like in Brawl/Melee and am against air grabs (besides that wouldn't work for characters who use Zair) and air smashes etc.  Smash is imbalanced and complicated enough already. 
Taunting to have a Soul Caliber 'soul charge' like effect that slightly raises power I'm okay with.
I could go on for pages about new characters, moves and changes but this is already a wallOtext so I won't.

Hacks: People texture hack and use other hacks all the times so they might as well add different costumes and a color editor to the next game.  Energy trail effects that could be turned on or off look cool.  This goes for stages and characters.  You should be able to save them, group several in a theme (like haunted smash them or fire them etc) and share them.

Final Smashes should also be more balanced, Link's can only catch 1 character or miss entirely and Sonic's or Pikachu's are devastating.  Characters who have a harder time catching the smashball should break it more easily too.
 
Online:
People complain about Brawl's wifi but it IS free so you still get more than you pay for.  It isn't great and an optional upgrade to a better network that probably would cost money is preferred but don't get rid of the free one.

Link has been a low tier in all 3 SSBs.  Make him good in SSB4!

This is good stuff



Balance is very difficult to achieve in a fighting game pre-release. The strategies used by devs testing the game will be nowhere near the strategies used by pro players after months of playtime. A better solution is to have the ability to patch the game to fix extreme balance issues after the game comes out.



I wouldn't go so far as to promote modding, because that will easily lead to cheating. But taking hacks from SSBB and making them into actual game features like you suggest is a great idea.



See my above comment on balance.



Thing is, other Wii games have proven that the system can deal with decent online features. Brawl's online was a disgrace. Why no option for itemless 1v1 matches, or custom brawls, or Communities like on Mario Kart 7 (but more improved)?

Brawl should have been more balanced and SSB4 should be from the start.  Fortunately the series' director said he's going to include his staff in character balancing next time.  In past SSBs he almost exclusively balanced the game.
Patches are a good idea too but Brawl really should have been released more balanced.  It was held back twice and I think they were forced to rush through character collision and such, to be fair.


Brawl has itemless 1vs1s and options through friend code sharing.  It can be setup every way basic brawl can.  Special Brawls on wifi would be fun.  What gets to me and a lot of people on the ladder is the lag factor.  Close connections are decent, I suppose.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like you ignored my comment. My whole point is that it is extremely difficult to predict which characters will be broken without many months of extensive play testing by the best players in pro Smash. Sure, it looks obvious now that Meta Knight is broken, but we have no idea what the developers experienced with the character during their playtesting.



You should be able to play itemless 1v1 matches through matchmaking. It would rather easy to implement a checklist system for matchmaking, where you indicate the factors you want before getting matched up. An example list of search variables would be:

Items [On][Off][Either]
Players [1v1][FFA][Either]
Teams [On][Off][Either]
Mode [Time][Stock][Either]
Stage [Loser][Random][Either]

These features could be expanded through community settings, where the leader could selectively enable/disable specific items, stages, and characters while determining the specific settings for the match. Just because Brawl's online works, doesn't mean it can't be vastly improved.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.  MK has been ranked highest on every tier list from the start.  Similarly Ganon, Link and Jigglypuff have been consistently in the lowest 4 ranks.  Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth, Falco and DDD have always stayed high or top tiers.
There are several obvious imbalances like the DDD vs DK MU.  I agree that the developers can't get everything right before the game's launch but Brawl was ridiculous.  It was also 3rd in the SSBs series so they weren't inventing the wheel and knew the competitive aspect  of Smash.  Disagreeing=/=ignoring a comment.

First it's

To which I said there are are itemless 1vs1 and vs mode options with FC sharing.  Then you changed it to just include matchmaking (I assume you mean 'play with anyone') which is just a bonus feature for quick brawls that no one uses.  If you want community, click on the 'Chat' button under the AiB banner and go to 'freeplay chat'.  This is what AiB is about, finding people, knowing the distance for better connections, playing and chatting, people hosting custom online tourneys and ladders etc.
And I said it could still be improved but for something that's free Brawl's online works pretty darn good.

-_- this was initially something for unique and new ideas, roster rebalancing and debating likely aren't what the topic creator was looking for... and besides, all it causes is trouble due to differring opinions with no compromise in sight.

by the way things stand, Rizen is right about MK placing high on many tiers lists. however, Fenn has a point in that for all we know the rest of the roster MAY have potential that can outmatch MK, nothing is completely certain until we test everyone else. finally, for all we know, Sakurai could never truly have intended Smash to be majorly competitive... only people we can blame for the game to have been rushed this badly is the masses... generating hype, demanding releases as soon as possible, and then executives order developers to patch up what they can and just dummy out the rest, you wanna pin blame for Brawl being incomplete as a whole, blame the hype.

meanwhile, Communities do sound like an idea, though, and it could make one more step to having tournaments organized a little easier. perhaps add the ability to briefly describe it, state the primary rules and such with it.

Well, this is a far better response. The first time you replied you basically just said "No, Brawl should have been more balanced. Brawl should have been more balanced and you know it." Now you've provided some evidence and rationale.

And I still argue that, with such a diverse character roster, you can't expect much in terms of balance at the game's release. Brawl has 35 characters, correct? That's 630 unique matchups! Each and every one of those matchups develops over countless hours of brawling between thousands upon thousands of members of the Smash Bros gaming community. This isn't your typical Street Fighter or MvC either; look at the difference in playstyle and moveset from MK, to Snake, to IC, to G&W, etc. These are incredibly diverse characters.

You claim that MK was top of the tier list since the beginning. Well, how long does it usually take for the first official tier list to be produced? A few weeks, a couple of months? I don't follow tier lists well so you can inform me, but I assure you it does not come out within days of release. Given the size of the Smash community, a few weeks is a lot, and I mean a lot of hours of playtime. Asking developers to spend that much time in order to produce a balance Smash Bros means sacrificing a hell of a lot of time devoted to other aspects of the game. I will agree that Sakurai needs to let the rest of the team help with balance. But I honestly don't expect much from the balance; as long as there are 10 or so viable tournament characters in the roster, I will be happy.

One last note to keep in mind: just like in Pokemon, not all characters are designed with the tournament in mind. Bowser is low on the tier list, but can kick some major butt in 4 player FFA. Sonic kinda sucks, but with Smash Balls turned on he is easily one of the best. Mario has never been one of the best, but his simple moveset makes him ideal for new players. If the devs try to cater too much to balancing the itemless 1v1 matches, character balance in other modes could be ruined.


In other words, the game might already be more balanced then you think.



"Pretty darn good," huh? I take it your standards are on par with Nintendo's idea of "good" online, which is about 5 years behind the rest of the industry. At this point in time, I should be able to connect to the internet and jump straight into matchmaking for my desired mode (within reason), or drop into and out of a room made by a friend, and have most (if not all) of the features from offline versus included. Considering the entire Smash tourney community plays with itemless 1v1s, matchmaking for this mode is a must. Connections will always be an issue, but most online games these days require little attention by the players to secure an acceptable connection quality. Nintendo has proved that they can do this with other online games already, and Wifi for those is free as well. Why not Brawl?

If you find Brawl's online satisfactory, you must think Mario Kart Wii is the be-all end-all of online functionality.



(Note: I'm trying to avoid sounding condescending, but it's REALLY hard to do this on a forum)

Don't try to 'put words in my mouth'.

You forgot PT has 3 pokemon^.  You're card-stacking a lot of (inaccurate) numbers that don't even apply.  Every MU isn't intended to be 5/5.  Several really obvious things slipped by.  Brawl has an easy shield and grab system so why give the character with the biggest normal grab range in the game a Dthrow with short fixed distance?  Why do several characters have grab infinites on Ness/Lucas?  1 grab to death and we're not talking just ICs.  Have you seen Snake's frame data?  Ftilt hits frames 4, Utilt hits frame 6.  Ganon's fastest ground move is grab on frame 7.  The imbalance in the programing for speed, power, weight etc is soooo obvious that even 1 rushed person balancing most characters should have picked up on it.
 
MK's been ranked highest because people won with him since the beginning and that's what the tier list came from.  1 rushed person balancing isn't going to do a good job.  That alone says that the game could have been better balanced.  MK's so good he was banned in most western tourneys.  IDK how ANYONE could think that Brawl was launched with adequate effort being put into character balance.

A reminder: balancing and character collision is about enough balance that all characters can compete.  No character was made just for noobs and if one was it's not Mario.  Balance for competitive play will improve balance in other modes too.  Also "character balance in other modes could be ruined" <What balance?  Other modes are even less balanced than competitive single/doubles format.

Well they can't please everyone.  Even by offering 100% FREE online play with all the normal vs mode features there's still at least 1 person who can't scroll to the top of the screen, click 'chat' then click 'freeplay' to find these matches.  Seriously, why are you complaining about a bonus quick brawl feature that no one cares about instead of taking a two click path and using the good wifi system?

You might as well stop trying.  If you're going to attack my first post's parts about balance and wifi without knowing the facts then condescending is the right tone.
What is your problem anyway?  This is an ideas thread, I posted my 2 cents and you go and attack my post and start a big thing with false info like 'wifi doesn't allow 1vs1s without items', which I'm not going to take lying down.  So much for posting my ideas; this is BS.

I'll reply to the rest of your post if you really want me to, but before that let me get something straight.

We were having a perfectly civilized, on-topic conversation until post #53. After your first post I specifically selected the first half of it and said they were good ideas. There were a lot of ideas there though, so I didn't feel the need to address each one individually.

Then you had the idea to make the game more balanced. I replied by saying that while that would be great, I think another idea that would better address the issue would be to implement patching. You replied with this:



If we go sentence by sentence here, we get: "Brawl should have been more balanced. The director said his staff will help him in the next game, which is good because he balanced the first ones by himself. Patches are good too but it really should have been better balanced from the start. Although, character collisions were probably rushed."

Which is a fine reply except that I, however, felt you had ignored most of what I was trying to say about how its much different for developers to test for imbalance than for pros to find imbalances. So I raised the point again, and again you ignored it, not a single reference to developers, just comments about tier lists. Had you at that point brought up what you just did about blatant attack frame inbalances that even a lone tester should be able to see is broken, I would have agreed with you! Instead you mirror my comment for sarcastic effect and attack me by saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

As for my math, if we have 35 characters, the first character has 35 matchups. Then we add 34 for the second character, since one matchup has already been accounted for. Then we add 33 for the 3rd, and so on, giving us...665 matchups. More actually, you're right I didn't factor in PT. So I miscounted a bit, but it doesn't change my point. And unless I'm missing something, those are the only two numbers I've been "card-stacking."


And now we go to wifi.

Your original idea was that Brawl's Wifi was fine and we should keep the free one. I replied by saying other games have proven that Nintendo can provide free Wifi modes better than Brawl, and threw out some ideas (and this is an ideas thread, as you said) on how to improve it.



Okay! I hear you out, and reply by saying I think 1v1 itemless matches should be enabled on matchmaking, and post some more ideas on
how to make online better, and end by saying "Just because Brawl's online is works, doesn't mean it can't be vastly improved." I was a bit surprised by your reply then, as you began providing me with 2nd-hand alternatives to my ideas for Wifi. I believe you claimed that "play with anyone" is a useless quick brawl mode no one uses. This is strange because random matchmaking is generally THE most popular mode in almost any online game. You don't think if Brawl's was better, people would use it more? And you tell me that if I want community just use AiB. I don't know if you played Mario Kart 7, but communities are a way of quickly jumping into matchmaking using a predetermined custom ruleset to play with people who want to play the same way you do. AiB does not offer that.

Beyond this I can't figure out why you are so eager to shoot down my ideas for improving Wifi on the ideas thread. I did see you acknowledged that Brawl's online could be improved. Then you said it was pretty darn good, and I disagreed, because I've playerd Wii games like Mario Kart 7 and Conduit 2 that (despite the latter game's many other flaws) did free Nintendo Wifi much better that Brawl. I will definitely admit that my reply to this was very condescending, but I just couldn't figure out what you were comparing Brawl to that made it's online seem "pretty darn good."

But what baffles me the most is that you claimed I attacked your post when I was doing what we've been doing on this ideas thread for a few pages now; posting ideas to improve Brawl and critiquing each others while trying to make them better.

Friend code sharing IS brawls matchmaking. The with 'anyone play' isn't. You don't know the first thing about wifi, how character balancing works, character data and throw out all these irreverent and inaccurate pieces of gibberish that don't even relate to how wifi or character balancing is done. You'd rather complain about a free online system that you haven't even tried and cut selective quotes that don't even show my point (which you have no answer to btw) than have an informed counter argument. I said an optional better wifi system that would cost$ would be good but to keep the free original too in my first post. But you omitted my thoughts about the optional wifi and started rambling about who Brawl doesn't have an itemless 1vs1 online so I corrected you because that's not true. You omitted the 'for a FREE feature' and just argued about how it isn't 'pretty darn good' even though you don't even know how Brawl's wifi works and won't try how it was intended. The whole part about infinites and frame data and this "MK's been ranked highest because people won with him since the beginning and that's what the tier list came from. 1 rushed person balancing isn't going to do a good job. That alone says that the game could have been better balanced. MK's so good he was banned in most western tourneys. IDK how ANYONE could think that Brawl was launched with adequate effort being put into character balance" you ignored.
I'd say 'why don't you throw out more irrelevant, ignorant gibberish and I use the word gibberish because calling your trolling an argument would be an insult to arguments everywhere' but I won't because I feel stupid in the way someone should feel stupid talking to a brickwall.
I had ideas but this is a waste. I guess even this kind of thread can have trolls. I'm sorry for getting in an argument on this thread. In retrospect the whole thing was posts better used elsewhere. I'm gone.

If you're gone, your gone, but if you're still monitoring this, I'm replying because I refuse to be called a troll when I had no intention of shooting down your ideas, nor trying to sound superior, nor even claiming I know as much as you do about these topics! And now I'm being criticized of not addressing things I HAVE addressed! So let me address them.

Before I do so, I'll concede that I've been misuing a term. Matchmaking is not what I meant, I wanted to refer to random matchmaking, or "worldwide" matchmaking, or "play with anyone"; being paired up against random opponents around the world. That is definitely my fault. You're right; Brawl works great with friends, I have used wifi with friend codes to a limited extent and it works well. But random matchmaking in Brawl is weak, and I really hope we can agree that the majority of successful online games today, including fighters, rely on random matchmaking heavily in their online component. Brawl's forces you to play 4 player matches with items on using standard rules; more options would greatly improve it.

You say I ignored:
1. your idea about an optional better wifi, with the option to just keep the free one.
A: I DID reply to this, by pointing out that other Nintendo Wifi games have produced far better online experiences for free (and I named examples), so why should we have to pay for it in the next Smash?

2. your point that you claimed Brawl's online is pretty darn good "for a FREE feature."
A: As you can see from the last point, I DID cover this by bringing up specific exampels of other free Nintendo Wifi games with better online.

3. your point about framerates.
A: I specifically referred to in my previous post, and said that you should have brought it up one post sooner, and that I FREAKING AGREED WITH YOU. I AGREED WITH YOU. ARE YOU READING MY POSTS OR NOT.

4. your point about tier lists.
A: In one post I replied by asking you how long it took to craft a tier list, and admitted I was not very knowledgable on the subject. I also made a point of saying that it would be very hard for the developers to replicate the testing that was done to make tier lists prior to the games' release. To which you explained the facts about framerates which, as I established, I agreed with you on and conceded the point.

5. your point about 1 rushed developer not being able to balance a game.
A: I replied to this too, saying yes, it's a good thing that Sakurai will let his team help him on the next one.

And despite having addressed all of these things already (or do you need me to find all of my quotes for them?), while simultaneously attempting to express my point civilly (except for in one post where I was admittedly rude) I get called out for being a troll, a brickwall, and for spouting ignorant gibberish, of which you have failed to specify even one example. Even if you don't reply, I hope you at least read this so you can see I've done none of what you claim I've been doing.


Sorry to derail the thread. I hope it hasn't been ruined, if people have more good ideas continue to share them.

okay, so recently I've been trying out this Project M mod as of recently, and it kind of makes me wonder about movesets. my prime example is Pit since I've been near constantly playing Kid Icarus Uprising, and the Dash Charge Shots (or continuous fire) in the Land Battles along with the Bow's Special Attack in Air Battles would make great additions to the moveset particularly... specifically side B and the final Smash respectively

you think that would be relevant to this topic?