Brawl Low Tier Singles
tio tournament organizer
Add a Video
Upload a Stage
The Official Kirby Match-up Thread(Work in Progress) - as seen on Smashboards
All is Brawl forums
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Subscribe to this topic.
1:43 AM May 6 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
The Official Kirby Match-up Thread(Work in Progress)
MOST IMPORTANT VID EVER
How To Preform The Reaper Combo
This match-up has an entire thread dedicated to it which can be found here:
Kirby vs. Bowser
Im not going to go into too much detail on this match up as you have a full thread for it, but I do feel there are certain things that need to be remembered about this match up. First off, Bowser one of the few characters you can stand to play aggressively against. Bowser is a HUGE target, and one of the easiest to combo(not that you have alot of combos to use, but whatever) and his defenses are pretty weak as his shield is so tiny in proportion to his giant dragon turtle body. Be wary of a shielding bowser however as he's most likely waiting for an Up B out of shield. If you really want to be safe, approach with an inhale as it will out prioritize his fortress and give you an oh so cool hat(oh, and the Fire Breath is pretty good too) Utilt is your friend in this match up, and you should spam it accordingly. As for stages, avoid Yoshi Story like the plague, it should always be your ban. From there, anything with a low roof, Corneria, Pokemon Stadium come to mind. Your best counter picks will be Dreamland 64, Jungle Japes and Kongo Jungle 64 for their high roofs. FD is pretty neutral here as neither of your characters really have good approaching options(watch out for flame cancels though) A side note goes out to FoD as Bowser is the only character you can successfully SD cancel on.
Stage Ban: Yoshi Story
Counter Picks: Dream Land 64, Kongo Jungle 64, Jungle Japes
Stages to Avoid: Corneria, Pokemon Stadium.
Victory Percentage: 50/50(usually stage dependent)
First and foremost, before you even begin to fight with a Falcon you have to have to think about the stage. If you are fighting on FD you're pretty much helpless on stage so you're going to have to play as defensively as possible, staying in your shield as much as possible, abusing shield grabs and camping the ledge. If you're playing on FoD then you can afford to be more aggressive as Falcon has trouble maneuvering on the small stage and the platforms screw up his shffls. If you get the chance to counter pick I suggest either FoD or Kongo Jungle(I can never remember if thats the right one or if its the other one >.<) as confining Falcon severely damages his play style. Another suggestion COULD be Dream Land 64 as the high roof and large death box can keep you alive for a long time while still giving you the chance to gimp Falcon but its still a very large, flat level, giving him a major advantage when it comes to attacking.
Next will be the advantages Falcon has over you(there's quite a few so just sit and listen) First off, as previously stated, on large, flat stages, you're pretty much helpless and Falcon has amazing freedom of movement. He's very, very fast on the ground and that carries to his aerial movement. His SHFFLs can cover a large distance and his attacks hit hard. He CAN chain grab you, and he CAN Dthrow->Knee you, even at higher percents. His tech chase game is good, as he can move around the stage amazingly fast with fox trotting. And, of course, he out ranges you. While his Fair is sort of low range/low priority, his Nair, Uair and Bair all have ALOT of range over you and his Uair and Nair will more than likely out prioritize anything you have. And lets not forget his stomp. Kirby is one of those unfortunate characters who can both be combo'd by the stomp and killed by it. Oh, and he has the Falcon Punch, so your basically screwed XD
Ok, your not really screwed, and to be honest, as far as the high tiers go, Falcon is one of the more winnable match ups. First of, and this is probably the most important thing to remember, you absolutely, positively, MUST have good DI in this match up. The fact that Falcon CAN Dthrow->Knee doesn't mean you have to let him sweet spot you with it. If you remember to C-Stick DI, or more importantly, Duel Stick DI, you can avoid most of his kill combos. Secondly, crouch. No, more. More. MORE! YOU NEED TO CROUCH MORE. Seriously, Kirby's crouch screws with Falcons. You cant be grabbed from a crouch, you cant be sweet spotted by the Knee, and your Dtilt out prioritizes alot of his approaches(not all, but some) Also, a little something interesting about Falcon's Stomp. I've found that if its not timed JUST RIGHT, you can Utilt him out of it. And you know what that means? REAPER COMBO Yes, the beautiful Utilt->Utilt combo. It works soooo well on CF and you can combo one Reaper Combo into another Reaper Combo(at low %'s) A few other things to remember during this match up: Full hopped Double Bairs can work very well on a shielding Falcon as you may either shield stab him with the second, or follow up with utilts which will knock him out of his grab. His recovery is AMAZINGLY gimpable, sweet spotted Dsmash will basicly ruin him. And don't be afraid of going after him off of the ledge, as a fast faller with a predictable recovery there's not alot he can do while off of the ledge.
Now I'd like to talk about Kirby's grab game separately as it is VERY important to this match up. Now, despite what Nashun would have you believe Kirby CAN Dthrow tech chase Falcon. And Falcon's Tech isn't terribly fast or long so with proper timing you SHOULD be able to chase him down. I suggest ALWAYS dashing forward as most players will tech away from you, but if he does tech towards you, you can dash dance backwards and you should still be able to get him. Now, a smart player will quickly learn to avoid the tech chase by NOT teching and simply rolling or attacking off of the ground. Now, the unfortunate thing about this is, you dont have the luxury of being able to tilt AND still be able to tech chase if he does tech. This is where you have to be smart. Once again, dash forward and if he doesnt tech, dash dance back and CC and either jab if you have time, or shield his wake up attack. If you see him roll, chase, you should be able to catch him. If your close to the ledge and Falcon has enough damage, I would suggest Dthrow tech chase to Dsmash as it can lead to an easy edge guard kill. If you're having trouble getting a grab out, remember that the stomp is very punishable if he hits your shield, as is a missed grab, although I might suggest a CC'd Dsmash for a missed grab as you can actually grab him out of it if you hit him with the inside of your feet and he pops up. Also, don't forget that you can Utilt->grab and that if you time it properly, you can Utilt him out of a Stomp. Also, it should be noted that Falcon cant do alot to escape if you grab him on a small platform.
As you can see, this match up isn't hopeless, it is in fact very winnable if you know what your doing. An interesting side note, I usually play this match up WITHOUT facing CF. Your Bair and Utilt are your best moves for this match up. Remember, if you really want to win, you'll stack everything in your favor. CP the proper levels, play to the particular level your on, and crouch ALOT.
Stage Ban: FD
Counter Pick: FoD, Jungle Japes, Mute City
Stages to Avoid: Dream Land 64, Yoshi Story
Victory Percentage: 40/60(Falcon's Favor)
I hate using my own vids, mostly cus the Falcon sucks (Take THAT Nick) but dear GOD are there no Kirby vids out there.
Quote (originally posted by
If you don't DI his D-throw perfectly everytime, he can easily get F-airs on you at practically any percent (which means grab=dead). And even with proper DI, he can choose not to go for F-airs and get free B-airs, D-airs, or U-airs at any percent; taking damage with Kirby is never good since he's so light. Just try to outspace him with your attacks and be a better player overall.
Good attacks to spam against Doc are B-air, F-tilt, D-tilt, and... that's about all Kirby has against Doc, and they're far from good at starting combos or out prioritizing him to begin with. If you can get a U-tilt on Doc, that's always great because he seems to dislike getting juggled into B-air, especially multiple B-airs, but watch his hit stun. If you're good at Final Cutter, you can cut through a pill he throws at you and then come down and send a projectile back all in one attack - don't do this too often though because of the lag with Final Cutter afterward.
Grabs are almost useless against Doc, so just go for a quick B-throw to get him closer to the stage, or off of it. If you D-throw, he can hit you before you can do anything and F-throw is much easier to break out of than B-throw. U-throw is good for 10% damage and usually nothing else. You can try Copying his pills and spamming them, but he has a Sheet...
Just to add, special attention has to be payed to the recovery game of this match up. If your knocked low, your in trouble as Doc's ledge hopped Bairs will destroy any hopes you have of recovering, and the sheet will easily dispose of your Final Cutter if you don't perfectly sweet spot it. Conversely, Doc's recovery game is not only horrible, but its even easier to gimp than yours. If your opponent is off the stage a single Bair will basically destroy his recovery. Do not be afraid to chase doc off the stage, as it will be your easiest way to get kills. Once again, for stages, your going to want something that can extend your survivability. Dream Land 64 is good as Dthrow -> Fair doesn't kill till 100+% Jungle Japes is notable as it makes it basically impossible for Doc to sweet spot the ledge. Corneria is probably your best ban stage, or the old standard of Yoshi Story. Corneria gives Doc alot of pill options, so if he's spam happy, your going to want to ban it. If your playing a more straight forward, kill you as fast as he can doc, ban Yoshi Story.
Stage Ban: Corneria, Yoshi Story
Counter Picks: Dream Land 64, Jungle Japes
Stages to avoid: FoD, which ever stage you didn't ban.
Victory Percentage: 30/70(Doc's Favor)
None. If you find some good ones, please tell me T.T
Quote (originally posted by
DK's game revolves around grab combos and landing strong attacks like Giant Punch. It's very important to remember that Kirby cannot crouch under Donkey Kong's grab, even though it looks like he should be able to. This match up would be much easier if Kirby could avoid grabs in this way since crouching is a major part of Kirby's defense. If you're crouching, make sure to d-tilt if DK comes within range to keep grabs away but avoid d-tilting should he go for an aerial approach since you cannot afford to lag yourself in that situation.
Don't be afraid to go a little more offensive since DK's large size makes him easier to hit and combo. Just make sure that if you move in for an attack that you do
miss since even a single hit from DK can be bad news. You may have to play a game heavy with feints and draws because DK can play keep away from Kirby better than Kirby can with DK, and if you try to camp it will just give him the opportunity to charge his Giant Punch. Stay close to DK, but don't leave yourself vulnerable.
Edge Guarding the Kong can be a little problematic since DK is heavy allowing him to survive a number of hits from Kirby. Additionally, he will usually be sent upward allowing him to recover much more easily. When he recovers from above, you have to be very precise in getting another hit on him to send him back off the stage because he can go for the stage or back to the ledge fairly easily and once he's back on he's hard to get back off again. If you can manage to force him to recover low, go for the Edge Hog. Yes, you can opt to D-air him, which is almost always a guaranteed KO due to DK's poor vertical recovery, but with Kirby's slow aerial mobility and the start-up lag of the d-air, it's often hard to get it through DK's Up Special before he makes it back to the ledge. Grabbing the ledge for invincibility and landing a b-air or u-air will usually yield good results.
Not much more to say here. Be careful of your stages, anything with a high roof will always be your friend but NOT Dream Land 64 as DK's recovery combined with the ridiculous difficulty of killing him on that stage will always destroy any benefit the stage gives you. Your best bets are(oddly enough) the DK stages, Kongo Jungle 64 and Jungle Japes. Huge roofs will keep you alive for quite a while. Special side note. Green Greens is THE WORST stage you can possible play on in this match up. Low roof, close walls, DK will destroy you on this stage. Corneria is a generally bad stage to play as well.
Stage Bans: Dream Land 64, Green Greens
Counter Picks: Yoshi Story(don't get hit) Jungle Japes, Kongo Jungle 64
Stages to avoid: Corneria, Pokemon Stadium, Whatever you didn't Ban
Victory Percentage: 30/70(DK's Favor)
Ok, now here's an unhappy match up. Falco is the complete opposite side of the tier spectrum compared to Kirby, and it shows when you play him. Lets list off all the things he has over you shall we? High priority aerials, high damage combos, shine, lasers, shine, a spike, shine, speed, shine, amazingly useful smashes and did I mention his shine? You have.......a better recovery
hwell: Falco is top tier, and you will feel it hard if you don't play this match up perfectly(and possibly even then, its just that hard)
I want to talk about the lasers first because, of all the different choices Falco has, his lasers will almost always be the best choice in this match up. You can crouch to avoid some of them, but perfect SHL can hit a crouching Kirby, but its amazingly difficult to do perfect SHL every time, so unless your playing against Eggm, I don't think it should be too much of a worry. However even without hitting you, SHL will stop you in your tracks as you have no way to approach while being spammed. Your best bet in this fight to get around the spam is to copy Falco's power as quickly as possible then just be better at spamming than he is. This will could be difficult depending on the situation. If you manage to get his power AND get him off your back, your in a good position. Kirby gets something that Falco doesn't, SHDL, and he can fire them off faster than Falco so if you can get the upper hand, you can actually lock down falco pretty well. Your Full Jump Triple laser is also usable in this match up as it will cover a large area and can keep Falco from approaching easily, and keeping Falco from approaching is key in this match. You're not going to be able to go toe to toe with Falco without some sort of advantage, so if you can out spam him and rack up some early percents before he gets in close you'll have a better chance of surviving and maybe even killing.
Like I said earlier, going up close and personal against Falco with Kirby is a very bad idea. His shine can ruin anything your doing and set you up for some hard combos. Your best bet is just to attempt to ruin whatever he tries to do up close with a well placed inhale(assuming you don't already have his power) and copy. From there, your going to want to get him off of you and the Utilt is your best bet. Used perfectly it can out prioritize Falco's Dair and from there your set up for a Reaper Combo. At low damages, you'll easily get 3-4 Utilts in, but from there it can be DI'd out of easily so try and just get 2-3 then end it with a Bair/Uair. If Falco is at VERY low damages you might be able to get a Bair->Utilit->Bair/Uair combo out wich is always nice. From there its a matter of run away + Spam and hope you can keep Falco away long enough to get him to kill percentages. Now, you may be thinking, "But Reaper, if Utilt out prioritizes Falco, couldn't you stay up close and try for more Reaper Combos?" To which I answer, "NO, NO, NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO!" Kirby can ONLY out prioritize Dair and Fair(never used >_
and can hit through a Uair but its rare that a Falco will approach with that. Bair and Nair have WAY more priority than anything Kirby can hope to throw out, and as it is, Utilt has to be perfectly spaced to get through a Dair. And if Falco manages to get into you, he can easily start up a Pillar combo and just destroy you with relative ease. So yes, I am suggesting that you actually stay AWAY from a very spammy character.
Now, assuming you manage to get Falco to those kill percentages, your going to need to be able to follow through with the kill. Now, let me start off by saying that Falco is one of the most AMAZINGLY gimpable characters in the game(more so than doc) so if you manage to get him off the stage at low damages, always, always go for the kill. If you can get him below the ledge its basically a free stock. You can either just jump out and destroy his recovery with ANY attack, or, if he's attempting to sweet spot, just go for the edge hog. If he's above the ledge, expect a Phantasm back on to the stage. Understand that Falco's Phantasm is one of the lowest priority attacks in the game, so throw out a Bair or Nair as close to the ledge as possible and attempt to force him below it. Now, if you DON'T get lucky, and have to get him off the stage the hard way, here's a few suggestions. Bthrow is your best grab option as Falco's Fast......faller-ness will send him low off the stage. Or, if you can manage it, a Utilt will still combo even at high damages and a Uair will more than likely get you the kill as Falco's recovery is far from amazing(for that matter, they're far from ok) Other than that.......Bair/Third Kick Fair close to the ledge. Thats about it.
Ok, on to the bad stuff. Falco only needs one good hit on you to kill you. A well placed Dair or Nair will lead to a Shine and a Shine will lead to ridiculous Shine combos, and Kirby doesn't have the luxury of being able to survive for very long. At 80% an Fsmash will kill you, at 90% a Usmash and Dtilt will kill you, at 100% a Utilt will kill you, and after that, anything shy of an Fair will kill you :urg: And that doesn't even cover the fact that a Dair can kill you at basically ANY percent and is basically unsurvivable at 50% There's not really alot of detail I have to go into here as Falco doesn't really have to try very hard to kill you, while you have to play pretty perfectly to kill him.
As for stage picks, FoD works well to destroy his SHL but its generally a bad idea to play on a stage that gives him platform combo-ability. Dream Land 64 still gives you survivability but once again, platform combos destroy you. Mute City is generally a good stage against Fast Fallers as it just loves to rape them whenever they fall of the platform
And despite the oh so cool tricks Falco can do on Jungle Japes, its actually a very bad stage for him as the river destroys him and since you'll never actually be killing a Spacie off the top the high roof can only help you. FD is......well, in an awkward position. It does have the pluses of giving Kirby good survivability and it lacks the platforms to give Falco any crazy combos and for generally giving YOU the advantage if you can spam smart, but there's the negative of not being able to approach very well at the beginning of the match, which can lead to very bad things @.@
Stage Bans: Yoshi Story(top priority for ban) Battlefield, Dream Land 64(soft ban)
Counter Picks: Mute City, Jungle Japes, FoD
Stages to Avoid: FoD(yeah yeah, I know, its on the CP list too, Im just saying, it COULD be bad) Green Greens(shine off the top)
Win Percentages: 20/80(Falco's Favor)
Quote (originally posted by
This is one of Kirby's hardest match-ups when playing against a good opponent. Many of the things mentioned with Falco can be applied to this match-up with the differences coming mostly from Fox's movement, Shine, and use of lasers.
Fox can either play offensive or defensive against Kirby. Defensively, laser spammage can rack up damage from long distance and force Kirby to approach. Offensively Fox can use his speed to keep Kirby under pressure ridiculously well.
The only thing you can really do against a defensive or 'campy' Fox is to approach (and try to avoid lasers as best you can while doing so). Once close, Fox can move into offensive mode as he sees fit, or he can go for hit-and-run strategies and move back to defensive mode. Because of this you have to make sure to catch him with something - preferably before he can hit you with something - or, at the very least, make sure you're not letting him hit you with anything more threatening than a laser.
Against an offensive Fox you just won't be able to keep up with his speed. The best you can do is compensate by reading your opponent and making sure you're the one landing the hits instead of taking them. Be very wary of Fox's grab. His u-throw can combo into u-air which will rack up the damage or just outright KO you off the top. This is very abusable and spammable for Fox players to use, so make sure to always keep an eye out for it.
F-air seems to work well against Fox in many situations. Full Jumping it will let you cover a lot of area with its multi-hits and long duration. Short Hopping it can catch Fox while he's grounded or just going airborne. The triple kick can oft catch Fox with all three hits, but it's the third one that's especially important as it can send Fox a good distance away. If you only manage to hit with the first one or two kicks, make sure to Fast Fall and L-cancel because many times you'll be able to take your opponent by surprise with a follow-up f-tilt or grab.
B-air is always good to rely on. It can combo into U-tilt at low percents, or send Fox flying at mid to high percents. Using full-jumps, multi-jumps, and short hops to mix up your B-air positioning can always keep Fox off balance.
D-air is generally harder to hit with because of its start-up animation, but it's always nice if and when you do land it on Fox. Move in for a grab or some other follow-up since most of the time Fox won't be sent very far from this move.
When you grab, go for a D-throw at low percents to tech chase (or catch Fox with a u-tilt if he doesn't tech). At higher percents, just throw Fox toward the ledge, usually Back-throw since it's faster. If you're feeling lucky, you can go for a U-throw and try to catch Fox with something afterwards should he DI poorly (U-air at low percents), works well at super-low percents since it's a guarenteed 10% for the u-throw plus it cannot be broken out of.
If you manage to get a U-tilt on Fox, it's a perfect setup for U-air or B-air from low to high percents, but if Fox is at too high of percent you won't be able to reach him before he can get out of HitStun. Because of this, make sure not to rely too much on u-tilt at high percents and just go for something that will send Fox horizontal instead (f-tilt).
When Kirby is knocked off the ledge you have to be very, very smart with your recovery. If you go high, Fox can generally jump up and hit you again and even if not, he'll be on the ground ready to strike and Kirby has little in retaliation due to priority and speed. When recovering low, Fox will generally jump out and shine spike, or edge hog and go for shines and b-airs. Utilize your multi-jumps very well and be patient. Better to use those jumps for something close to the stage than to get hit away and not be able to make it back with a few saved jumps. When recovering, choose to either go high or low - you can't do both and Fox can take you out either way, but know your opponent and choose the best way.
If you go high, make sure to watch what Fox is doing. He'll generally go for B-air to knock you away again - and if he does you'll generally lose a stock because you won't have your jumps for recovery anymore. Just use your Jumps to stall in the air until you see a safer time to return to the ground. Use fast falling to get down quickly, and to mind games your opponent by varying your falling speed by alternating jumps, fast falls, and regular falls. If all else fails and you're out of jumps, you can always use Stone to make a brute force attempt to touch the ground, thereby regaining all your jumps so that you can retry your recovery options again should you be hit afterward. Air Dodging is generally a poor choice since Fox can launch multiple attacks before you can even make it back down to the ground - but it's not out of the question, especially if Air Dodging down can get you to touch the ground and get your jumps back.
When coming in low, watch what Fox is doing closely. In general he's going to try to go for shine spikes or b-airs. Either one is pretty devastating at this point. The best advice is to learn how to deal with each because a lot of this is based on timing and reflexes. There are a variety of ways in dealing with these edge guarding techniques, but I will go over a few of the more common ways.
To avoid shine spikes, you can drop down low and try to hug the wall as you come up. Right when you know Fox is going to a Shine, use your Final Cutter for vertical recovery and then try to Wall Tech so that if you get shine spiked, you won't be send downward and you can immediately use another Final Cutter (hitting Fox in the process would be handy). You can also try to time a U-air to hit Fox right before he can move in for the shine. This is difficult because Fox moves quickly, hits quickly, and Kirby's U-air only has three frames of hitboxes. If you can pull it off, though, it's has amazing results.
Another way to deal with shine spikes is to not drop low upon your recovery. This works especially well when you've been knocked off the stage at fairly low percents so that you're close to the stage with plenty of jumps to start. Start your recovery about even with the height of the stage. As you jump forward, send out a f-air and kick at Fox. Your horizontal position should make it hard for him to jump out and shine spike you as well as make it difficult for him to jump from the ledge and b-air you. This recovery technique is all about distancing and reading your opponent. The reason you want to have multiple jumps to start is so that you can fully capitalize on the f-air by pulling back away from the stage and then jumping toward it again with another F-air. You can use this as an intimidation method as you cautiously make your way back to the stage a little at a time until you see an opening to grab the ledge. If Fox gets aggressive, he can jump right into the F-air and, since he's moving toward you, he'll likely be caught in all three kicks and the third one will send him back into the stage, against the wall, and hopefully downward to his doom - or at least far enough away to let you grab the edge and go for some good, old-fashioned Kirby edge guarding.
Wow, that was easy
Stage Bans: FD, Yoshi Story
Counter Picks: Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium
Stages to Avoid: Green Greens
Victory Percentage: 10/90(Fox's favor)
Last edited by
The Pink Reaper
, 5:02 AM on May 24, 2008
5:02 AM May 24 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
Game & Watch
The Game and Watch match up sucks. Of all the low/bottom tier characters, G&W is likely to give you the most trouble due to his mass amounts of disjointed hit boxes and his above average speed from wavedashing. He's the lightest character in the game, but Kirby can't really capitalize on this due to his lack of strong killing moves. His recovery is good and his sweet spot range is huge making him hard to properly edge guard(although this can be solved with proper stage selection, more on that later) His move set is really an "Anti-Kirby" move set as many of his attacks are killers to our poor little pink ball of awesome.
Game & Watch(like most other characters) has range on you, and this will make him difficult to approach. His Fair can out prioritize your Bair and Fair making it difficult to get in on him if he's just holding back and playing defensively. Likewise, his Dtilt makes him difficult to approach on the ground as your Ftilt and Dtilt wont be able to get in from in front of him and his Utilt makes trying to Dair him from above difficult. However, G&W is unapproachable, you just have to be smart about it. G&W's tilts are laggy and only his Fair and Dair can be L-Canceled and even then they are still pretty laggy. Your best bet will be to space yourself just outside of G&W's range and feint attacks. Wavedash in but keep yourself just out of range. From here you have either the choice of Ftilting if you assume your opponent will attempt to approach or go the safe route and just shield. This will keep you safe from an Fair or a Dtilt should your opponent attempt to attack you from the ground. This should also keep you safe should your opponent attempt to Dair you. From there you have a few choices. If your opponent whiffs a move(lolmindgamez'd) its time to get in there and Utilt. Should you opponent have chosen to attack without restraint your in position for a shield grab. Dthrow is always a good option and G&W's tech is definitely easy to chase but he's light as hell and he'll be able to get out of the hit stun quickly at moderately low damage, so feel free to use the Uthrow to keep yourself safe and deal one more point of damage. It should also be noted that if you shield an Fair or Dair that you should keep it held as Fairs are almost always followed up by Dtilts of jabs and Dair has a second hitbox when it lands(it may even be a good idea to roll your shield down so you don't get shield stabbed.
On the completely opposite side of the spectrum, if your playing a very aggressive G&W your going to actually have it a little easier. Play a little more of the "Run away" game and wait for an easily punishable attack like Dair or any of his non L-Cancelable attacks. A missed grab, even JC'd is also an easy punish. Utilts are always your friend but Fairs and Bairs are always good assuming your at low enough damages to follow them up or high enough damages to set up an edge guard. If you manage to get yourself grabbed DI up and away to avoid the Dthrow->Judgment Hammer combo or the Dthrow->Nair(Note: the Nair will be impossible to avoid at low damage, dont get grabbed :laugh
Also, feel free to throw out a Bair any time you feel G&W has left himself too open, if there's one thing G&W is bad at its defending. His shield barely covers his body at full size and his roll is horrid. The huge problem with offensive G&W is just how much better he is at it than you are. His attacks combo well into each other and are quite good at killing Kirby. His Dtilt has enough knockback to kill you off the top on alot of levels with low ceilings and his Ftilt(Sexchair) rapes your Up B. Even worse, his Nair parachute can kill you at really low damages as can his Fsmash and Usmash.
Edge guarding is your biggest asset in this match up as G&W's Up B recovery is a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand it has tremendous range and he can easily recover from very low off screen. On top of that he has a huge sweet spot making it even easer for him to recover. On the other hand, his Up B is also sometimes TOO huge, making it hard or even impossible for him to sweet spot. This is where you can take advantage and give him an (un)healthy push with a toe Dsmash and send him flying. You can also abuse how terribly predictable his recovery will be, as G&W doesn't have alot of options when returning to the stage. If you believe G&W is just way too far to do anything but attempt for an Up B just hang on the ledge and force him to over shoot it. Worst case scenario, he's at low damage and you simply hit him with a bair as he goes by and he recovers again. Best case scenario, your up stock and he is forced to hit the ledge and give you a free swallowcide opportunity.
Obviously, all these ledge
tactics are completely stage dependent. G&W has an easy time recovering on FD and DL 64 and definitely FoD than he does on say, Jungle Japes or Yoshi Story. Your stage choice for this match should largely focus on screwing G&W at the ledge so levels like Yoshi Story, Jungle Japes and Mute City are your friends. You should also focus on levels with small blast boxes like Corneria and Green Greens to take advantage of the fact that for once your NOT the lightest one in battle. All in all this isn't a completely unwinable fight, its just highly unpleasent match to have to fight as G&W just does so well against Kirby.
Stage Bans: FoD, Dream Land 64
Stage Counterpicks: Jungle Japes, Yoshi Story(lol) Corneria
Stages to avoid: FD
Victory Percentage: 35/65(Game & Watch's Favor)
In my opinion, Ganon is much more difficult of a match up than Captain Falcon. He's heavier so he's harder to KO, his Down B is much better for recovery, he's stronger, and his reach on his Fair is absolutely retarded. If your going to win this match your going to have to play extremely smart and and extremely well.
Ganon's range makes him very difficult to approach and as such a defensive Ganon will make things very difficult for you. Shield camping is a bit of an option as even with L-Canceling, there is quite a bit of lag on Ganon's aerials. However a smart Ganon will just space auto canceled Bairs against you and eat away at your shield quickly. Your best bet is probably going to be playing a defensive style based around your crouch. A crouching Kirby is amazingly difficult for Ganon to hit, his Jab, Fsmash, Usmash, Uair, Wizard Foot(grounded), Warlock Punch(never used >.
and Ftilt(unless aimed down) cant hit you and many times his Dsmash will miss as well if your in the right position. This will mostly force him to approach with Fair, Dair or Bair(not likely as its hard for ganon to approach backwards) Fair will once again be your worst enemy, so you have to play smart. Attempt to keep yourself crouched until he attacks then Wavedash out of the crouch to avoid and punish the lag with a Bair->Utilt. Dair will destroy you as its knock back is absolutely disgusting, however if its shielded the lag is equally disgusting and its pretty easy to punish.
The main problem in this match up is the fact that you aren't allowed to get hit. Kirby doesn't last very long and you can easily find yourself dying at extremely low percents, especially on levels like Yoshi Story and FoD. Conversely, you need to do huge amounts of damage to Ganon and have some very aggressive edge/air guarding to get yourself a kill. On the plus side your generally faster than Ganon(although wave landing makes him quite quick) and your small size makes you a difficult target for him. Utilt is your best friend in this match up, it works amazingly on Ganon and can combo even at very high damages. Bair is also a good move at lower damages as combos into Utilt at lower damages. Fair and Dair are for when Ganon's on defense as the last hits on Dair can shield spike Ganon's exposed legs as can the fourth kick on Fair. Use Dair sparingly as it can be shield grabbed, but you can be a little more reckless with Fair as Ganon has a hard time grabbing Kirby if you Shffl perfectly and keep it well spaced. Edge guarding is going to be your main source of kills in this match as Ganon has an Up B that isn't actually an attack and is difficult to sweet spot with. Dsmash is the obvious best choice when edge guarding is it has decent knock back and a low trajectory. Dair is also an option, however if it gets meteor canceled your in for a thunder rape from Ganon and a possible stage spike at higher damages.
As for when Ganon's on the offensive and your at mid-high damage, all I can say is.......Don't get hit. Ganon's everything will kill you at low damages, and the stomp will ruin your recovery if you manage to survive as will a well placed reverse Uair. Just about anything Ganon has can kill you, and unless you're extremely careful, you will die very quickly. Ganon is a very straightforward character, he's less about huge combo's and more about insane power and range. Special note should be given to his grab game however as he can combo out of throws and chain throw you at lower damages.
Stage picks for this match are sort of difficult as anything that even slightly benefits you benefits Ganon more. Dreamland 64 is out due to the fact that Ganon doesn't die on that stage. Ever. Jungle Japes is out as the walls are too close for you to survive anything for very long and the side platforms work too well for Ganon. Well spaced Fairs from him will make him unapproachable on that stage. Kongo Jungle 64 is ok as you won't be getting Thunder Stomped off the top as much(but its still likely to happen) and theres no way for Ganon to avoid your edge guarding. Mute City is an interesting choice as once again you have easy edge guarding and for certain parts there are larger death boxes, but you'll have to deal with the few stops on the track with very low ceilings/close walls, and those are never good. Whats interesting is that outside of a select few stages that unbalance the fight horribly into Ganon's favor(Yoshi story, FoD, DL64) most stages don't actually change the match up. The fight itself stays almost exactly the same, only the percents YOU die at change.
Stage Bans: Yoshi Story, FoD
Counter Pick: Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64
Stages to avoid: Dream Land 64
Victory Percents: 25/75(Ganon's Favor)
If there's one character that stands out as an oddity to fight, its Jigglypuff. Fighting a jigglypuff is never the same as fighting any other character because of her combination of being the floatiest character in the game as well as one of the lightest. There is no way to combo her effectively, she ruins what little grab game Kirby ever had and if your hit didn't kill her instantly, she's probably gonna be able to make it back to the stage. Jigglypuff is the high tier, sudo-clone of Kirby, everything you can do, she can do better(except recover with Up B >.
and outside of maybe the Kirby Vs. Kirby match up, this will be the least interesting to play(and watch)
Lets take a look at this match up side by side why don't we? Kirby's best approach is his Bair. Its got ok range, ok priority, okish damage, low lag. It can only combo fast fallers into Utilts. Jigglypuffs Bair has great range, huge priority, good damage, low lag, can be Short Hop Auto Canceled, its basically Kirby's Bair, just not bottom tier T-T Kirby's Fair is his other approach, its another low lag, not very good priority(especially on his first two kicks) it has rather poor knock back, lowish lag, CAN combo into tilts and grabs if your adept at utilizing the "forth kick", its an Ok attack. Jigglypuff: High priority, auto cancelable, good damage, good comboability(it can combo into itself, wall of pain FTL) once again, its what Kirby wishes he had. I would go through the rest, but I think you get the idea, Jiggs is a GOOD Kirby
BUT, moving on to the actual fight, we see that its not all bad. Jigglypuff actually has a bit of a hard time with Kirby and the Wall of Pain isn't AS effective against him as some other characters(still very effective however) Don't think that makes this an easy match however. The fact that Jigglypuff can't be overly offensive doesn't change the fact that she can easily just camp your ***. Spaced Bairs can easily keep you away and ruin just about anything you try and do, as can Spaced Fairs. Jiggs only really has to sit there and keep you at bay building up damage and then just follow up for the kill with either an edge-guard or a Smash. Your best bet for getting around this strategy is to.....use it yourself >_> Your Bair won't ever out prioritize hers, however it is entirely possible to simply better time your attacks between hers. While a match of nothing but camping doesn't SOUND fun(and it isn't, Brawl, im looking at you -.-) it is your best bet to get some good hits in, cus you won't be comboing her any time soon. Obviously, your going to want to KILL her at some point or another. Now here's the hard part, your "best" way of killing her will be off the top, taking advantage of the floaty/light combination, however you'll almost never find yourself in a situation where you can use it without Jiggs having used Rest. Unfortunately, Kirby does not fall into the list of "Easily rested characters" so its unlikely that a Jiggs player will attempt too many of them. As such, you become hugely reliant on your edge/air guard game, which, of course, is sub par compared to Jiggs'. However, you do have something she doesn't, a Dair that actually does something off stage. If you can get it, a Dair is you best bet for an off stage kill as Jigg's Vertical recovery isn't as good as her horizontal(still amazing though, expect more than one Dair to be necessary)
The grab game works a little differently here, as the Dthrow should be avoided at all costs in this match. You can't do anything out of it and Jiggs can easily punish you for using it. Your best bet is almost always going to be Uthrow as it does the most damage and doesn't leave you particularly open. Fthrow needs to be avoided at all costs as you are extremely open if Jiggs breaks free, enough so to get rested. Bthrow isn't as bad, but its not particularly useful so don't bother unless your setting up for something. Jigg's grab game against you is a little more dangerous as a Bthrow sets you up for her amazing edge guarding abilities and her Dthrow may be used to set up a platform tech, by which i mean, you land on a platform, you tech, you get rested. Yes it happens, yes, you need to avoid it as much as possible. Fthrow and Uthrow aren't as prominent as they would be in other battles as they don't really set you up for anything.
Im going to talk about Jiggs' rest separately as it is the one thing that makes Jiggs an annoyance to play against. It doesn't matter how huge your lead is, a few well timed rests and the game is over for you. Luckily you won't find yourself in alot of the same rest combo's as say, Fox or Falco, but it IS possible with Utilt->Rest and Tech Chase Rests(and to a much less likely extent, Dair->rest and Nair->rest) Of course you want to avoid this as much as possible but if you DO get hit and you don't think you can survive, always, ALWAYS DI downwards and try to die off the side. A death off the top gives Jiggs enough time to wake up, a death off the side gives you enough time to get a hit in. As for punishing a rest/missed rest, your best bet is going to be a full charged Usmash. Make sure to stay as close as possible as the hit box is retarded and try and get as much of a charge off as possible.
Stage selection for this match is retarded because there's no stage that gives you an immediate advantage over Jiggs. Every way a stage can help you, it can help Jiggs more. Brinstar can be an interesting choice as the lava is more likely to KO jiggs at lower percents than you. Dream Land 64 is also a possibility if you want to attempt to survive a 0% Rest -_- Yoshi's Story isn't actually that bad as it destroys Jiggs' god tier recovery but once again you'll have to deal with the whole "Kirby dies at 60%" thing. On the plus side, while you have no immediate advantages from any given stage, you're also rarely at an immediate disadvantage. No stage really favors Jiggs more than Kirby save perhaps DL 64 where she can use her godly recovery to survive everything forever
Stage Picks: None, you'll never be at a great enough advantage. Brinstar, YS and Green Greens are all possibilities if you want to go for low % Kills.
Stage Bans: None really. DL 64 if you want the match to end any time soon though.
Stages to avoid: Big Blue, that place sucks.
Victory Percentages: 30/70(Jiggs Favor)
Kirby Dittos suck, never play them :laugh:
Kirby vs Link is a bit of an odd match up because in some respects its actually easier for Kirby than the Y. Link match up. There's two things Kirby can't deal with and that's range and speed. Y.Link has both of those while Link only has range on Kirby and in terms of spam its actually alot more manageable. Link is by no means an easy match up for Kirby but he's by no means an incredibly unwinnable match like say....marth.
Lets get a few things straight though, Link is better than Kirby. His Boomerang and Bombs will allow greater control of the stage and his Nair will rape your face(as thats all kirby has to rape) His ground game is quite a bit better than yours as his tilts have range+Power(not a huge amount of speed though) and his grab range is obviously monstrous, although its far from a safe thing to over use. Your main problem is going to be getting inside of his range as he can easily push you back with spam+sword. Once inside you'll have the ability to do quite alot of damage as Link is heavy and very easily comboed.
Control is a big part of this match and unfortunately, your at a disadvantage. Link has monstrous amounts of range control and is decent at close range. Your best bet is to get in close on one of the laggier aerials or projectiles and try and keep him off balance with fast tilts and quick combos(lol, like Kirby has combos >_
If your having trouble getting inside of the projectiles know that your Bair out prioritizes the Boomerang and try to learn to shield bombs and then catch them as it will give you something to help get inside. Once your inside the projectiles you still have to get inside the sword. Luckily Link is far from the fastest sword user and his tilts are pretty laggy. Your main problem is going to be his Nair. Its fast, high priority and has enough knock back to keep you away. Bair is also quite annoying but slightly easier to avoid. Once you get control, don't let up. Keep pressure on with Ftilts and Utilts->Aerials. Make sure your tech chase game is good and don't let Link escape for anything because once you do, you've lost control of the match.
Normally I'd talk about stage choices here, but unfortunately I know nothing about Link's good/bad stages. I know that anything with a spammable projectile will destroy Kirby on FD. The problem with alot of stages is that Links projectiles are so easily aimable. From above, from below, there's not alot of places you can escape from Bombs/Boomerang, so platforms aren't exactly your savior. Mute City's an interesting choice as the small "main" platform, cars and constant need to stay in the center of the stage can mess with projectile spam. Its also useful for messing with Links recovery, which is always a good thing. The lack of any ability to use tether recover means he's slightly more gimpable. If you can keep directly above him you can Dair him down easily or if he overshoots and your below him, Bair or Uair will ruin him. Don't become too reliant on edgeguards from the stage, Links Up B has good range and the last hit will just send you flying away and put him back in a range'd position. If you can get a good Dtilt opportunity on him, do it, but your usually better off with something avoiding the big, sharp, shiny sword of his.
Back on REAL stages, edge guarding is a little different. The "best" choice would be to abuse the ledge and attempt edge guards while keeping the ledge invincibility. Your best bet will be a ledge fallen Bair but if your playing a stage like FD or Yoshi Story and Link is stage hugging you can opt for a Falling Uair. It will allow you to stage spike Link should he be in front of you or just knock him back should you manage to get inside him. Hold back on the Dairs as much as possible as an Air Dodge->Hookshot will mess you up and put you at a disadvantage.
There are certain things you might want to practice for this match up. Being able to catch bombs is always useful. If your bad at Air Dodge catches or just standing catches, practice Shielding the bomb to make it bounce straight up and catch it then. Swallowcide canceling should be easy assuming you can do it consistently. If not, practice as Link has a rather large window. Avoid copying the arrows, they're useless.
New Info On Link:
Quote (originally posted by
Link's best stage (in most of his matchups) is Rainbow Cruise. It gives him room to spam with his controlling projectiles, and it let's him abuse his aerial priority. Rainbow Cruise is only not supposed to be used against really fast characters or Young Link. Link can't get CGed here, which is awesome because everyone and their mothers can CG Link.
Link's second best stage (and his best counterpick against the ones he can't fight on Rainbow Cruise) is Fountain of Dreams. It ruins the shffl game of most characters, has giant blast zones and a wall made for the hookshot. Platforms also prevent CGs lasting a long time.
Then it probably goes to Jungle Japes, with a high ceiling, little tricks in the water to move around and platforms that can let Link spam it's a decent stage. Not the best because Link's recovery there is very difficult and he can get gimped by Klap traps while on the hookshot. CGs obviously don't work here for long either.
Battlefield is a solid pick for Link, it has platforms made for uair shffls, is easy enough to recover on while gimping other recoveries and it allows Link enough room to spam. It has about average blast zones, but Link is still pretty heavy.
Dreamland 64 is pretty good against slower characters. It has tons of room for Link to spam, platforms for juggles (although not as good as battlefield's) and giant blast zones. Link usually lives up to about 130% here, and that's only if he's against stupidly powerful characters like Fox or CF. Never take a character that can CG Link here, as it will last forever.
FD is an ok stage if the Link whores nairs like it's their job or they are playing a really slow character. Link has much better stages to pick, so just never pick this one. I wouldn't strike it unless I was playing a CGer though (either this stage or DL64 should be stuck against CGers).
Pokemon stadium is VERY neutral for Link. CGs get stopped by the two low platforms, it has enough room to spam and the changes can either be good or bad depending on the matchup. The main problem is that low ceiling, which makes Link get KOed at unreasonable %s (I think a usmash from Fox can kill Link at 90% even with good DI).
Yoshi's story is a mixed bag of awesome. On one hand, Link stabs through the platforms easily and can get mean juggles that KO pretty well due to the stage's tiny blast zones. The problem is that everyone can do the same to Link, and usually better. At least CGs don't really work here since the platforms are low.
Every other stage is just really bad for Link, a few of them even make his hookshot recovery useless.
Stages to Avoid:????????
Victory Percentages: 40/60(Link's Favor)
Blah, this match up falls in with Marth as what can be considered one of Kirby's worst match ups ever. Its not nearly as unwinnable as the Marth Match Up but its far from enjoyable. Luigi is essentially two different fights, the one on the ground and the one in the air and both are far and away in Luigi's favor. On the ground Luigi is a speed demon with the longest wavedash in the game and a ground speed that rivals Captain Falcon(assuming perfect wavedashes) and he has alot of launchers, be it his Utilt, Dtilt or Usmash. In the air its the opposite, he's slow, floaty but his attacks have priority that almost makes Marth jealous. So yeah, fun stuff, but lets dive right in shall we?
Normally I save stage picks for last, but with Luigi its extremely important what stage you choose. FD is probably your absolute worst choice as are DL 64 and Yoshi Story. Kirby NEEDS platforms to play this match up and FD, without platforms, kills your best hope of winning right off the bat. DL 64 is horrible as it maximizes Luigi's recovery ability and Yoshi Story is Yoshi Story >_> Your going to want to chose a stage with platforms like Battlefield and then camp them like a little pink *****. Stay away from the ground and keep luigi's speed at his slowest. His aerial movement is horrid and your best chance is to play an "Intercept" game by simply staying on platforms then attacking when Luigi leaves the ground and then retreating back to another platform. I can not emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to attempt to go toe to toe with Luigi on the ground, his approaches are far too good for any of your defensive options and his attacks will lead into his powerful aerials. Other good levels are ones that hinder Lugi's movement abilities like Jungle Japes where you can camp side platforms and actually have a good defensive game or Rainbow Cruise where Luigi has almost no good areas to abuse his movement abilities. Kongo Jungle 64 has its nice little high platforms that can let you play a keep away game with Luigi or possibly Brinstar but its not recommended. Any other stages should be avoided as all of them put you at a large disadvantage against Luigi and you'll have a hard time doing much more than shielding and looking for a few openings.
One of the things that makes luigi so difficult to fight is that his aerial game leaves so few openings. His ability to Short Hop Double Aerial means he that there's no opening after the first aerial. Even worse, his ability to Short hop aerial waveland means that he can pressure a shield quite easily. His Fair and his Bair both easily out prioritize your aerials and his Nair will launch you up for a follow up attack and his Dair has monstrous knock back comparable to Doc's Fair. His wavesmashes are nothing to sneeze at either, his Dsmash has knockback and his Usmash is a low percent launcher. He's a very versitile character and shouldn't be taken lightly. But of course Luigi DOES have his flaws and they should be abused as much as possible. His recovery distance is large but its extremely predictable(barring the occasional misfire) meaning you can take advantage of it. Theres a certain amount of cool down time after Luigi's Forward B and as such you should always be looking for that opening to gimp him. His Up B has NO forward momentum meaning that just a little tap may be enough to keep him from the ledge. He's also slightly easier to Edge Hog as his lack of forward momentum means he cant land on the stage as easily. Luigi also has a very exploitable air weakness. While slow aerial movement is extremely useful for his ground game he has trouble moving up and down meaning that platform camping is one of your best options. Simply stay above Luigi and abuse his inability to easily chase you vertically. However, your movement must stay unpredictable, do not simply move from one platform to another as Luigi's wavelanding will be able to out speed you. If your above, retreat down, if your below, retreat to under a different platform and wait for an opportunity to move up again(as Luigi is coming down) If your playing on Jungle Japes, avoid the middle platform as much as possible. Stay to the right as long as possible and use the river to retreat to the left. Don't worry too much about Luigi's Fireball, its slow, low priority and easy to stop.
Obviously its going to be impossible to only play on stages where you have an advantage, so back on FD(or any other stage where you cant run away and hide) your strategy will be a little different. In any given smash match there's really two places to fight, the center of the stage and the ledge and the choice between where you want to fight is made on whether you want to survive a bit longer or if you want a chance for lower percent kills. This is a match where you really can't get a low percent kill as Luigi is too floaty to knock low enough for a gimp kill, so you'll want to stay as close to the center of the stage as possible. The problem here is that Luigi now has more options as he can Wavedash in and out with complete freedom. Your only real hope to gain control is to knock Weegee off balance with a quick Ftilt or Bair out of shield to slow him back down. From there you have a few choices. If you have the ability a Grab->Uthrow may actually be a good choice as it can put Luigi somewhere he really doesn't want to be, high in the air. You've also got the Utilt which can also put Luigi in the air, but the knock back is rather weak and the damage just isn't as good. However if you can't get an opening for a grab, or your just hoping to catch your opponent off guard, a Utilt is still usable. Once again, your still gonna want to abuse Luigi's slow air speed in this match up, keep him high and attempt to hit him through the lower priority points of his aerials(end of Fair, Dair, any part of the Nair) As an interesting side note, this may in fact be the only match up where the Final Cutter can see some use. Luigi's Recovery is actually so predictable and so exploitable that you can actually use the FC projectile to stop him.
In all honesty, while I hate the idea of this match up, I actually do enjoy it. Its so different and so interesting I just cant help having fun when I play it(even if I am losing v.v) You'll probably find yourself in some odd situations in this match up, but you should always know how to use it to your advantage(or at least not get yourself killed because of it) Stages with platforms are good, but stages with low platforms should be avoided. Pokemon Stadium and FoD have platforms that are low enough for Luigi to easily use to his advantage. Yoshi Story would be another bad stage(NOWAI) Dreamland 64 and Kongo Jungle 64 are good, Battlefield is iffy. FD is an obvious avoid. Pokefloats could actually be a usable Counter Pick, as could Rainbow Cruise. Luigi is a strong character, with few weaknesses, but the weaknesses he DOES have are quite exploitable. Don't assume your in for an easy match even if you are fully prepared, Luigi is just that much stronger than you, but its not unwinable. Also, if t!mmy vs Ka-master taught us anything, its that you should never Swallowcide Weegee on Jungle Japes >.>
Stage Picks: Kongo Jungle 64, Jungle Japes, Dreamland 64
Stage Bans: FD, FoD, Pokemon Stadium
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield
Victory Percent: 25/75(Luigi's favor)
Last edited by
The Pink Reaper
, 9:22 PM on Jun 27, 2008
5:03 AM May 24 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
This is, in my honest opinion, Kirby's absolute worst match up. Marth is just too gay of a character for Kirby to take on one on one. He has the advantage of being both floaty, and pretty heavy, meaning its going to be hard to get him off the stage and even harder to get a solid kill on him. Then there's the retarded range and power on his tipper, but even a non-sweet spotted hit can tear through Kirby. And his grab range, OH DEAR GOD, his broken *** grab range >.<(more on that later) To be honest, if the Marth knows what he's doing in this match, he absolutely wont lose.
First things first, stage pics. Or rather, stages that Marth doesn't have a horribly overpowered advantage on so you can't possibly even hope to harm him. Your choices here are Corneria and Jungle Japes. Thats it. And they are only good for you if your better at camping than he is :urg:
Stages to avoid: Yoshi Story, FD, Battlefield, Dreamland 64 and Pokemon Stadium. And those are just the stages that Marth gets an AMAZING advantage on, all the other levels just give him a moderate to above average advantage. FoD is supposed to be a bad stage for Marth, the problem is that in this particular match up, its pretty much worse for Kirby
So yeah, you haven't even begun the match and your already at a horrible disadvantage.
Now on to the important stuff, the actual match. First off, let me just say this, being the aggressor in this match will only hurt you. You have NO good approaches against Marth and as soon as you enter his happy zone, its lights out for you. Unfortunately, the more basic Kirby strategy of crouch->retaliate, is not going to work in this match up. Marths Dtilt/Fsmash outranges anything you can do from a crouch. You also cant trust the ledge because tipper >>>>>> Kirby ledge games. If you want to actually be able to compete in this match your going to have to play a little differently. I've found that this is much more of a waiting game than alot of match ups. Shield camping is your friend, as is light shielding. But you cant be careless with your shield, just sitting there with it up will get you grabbed. Your going to have to keep moving, make it seem like your approaching/retreating then shield the incoming attacks. Your gonna have to take a few hits, and wait the Marth out untill he makes a mistake. From there, its just a matter of punishing his mistakes as well as the situation will alow and then retreating before the Marth gets free and absolutely destroys you.
I find that it helps to have your back against a wall in this match up as it gives you something to transfer some of your momentum to if you take a hard hit. Its also something that helps you actually combo when you manage to hit Marth. Utilt->Bair works a whole lot better when Marth cant escape from the attacks. The big negative here is Marth's short hopped double Fairs. Against a wall gives you no where to escape if he gets you in a Short hopped double fair frenzy, and it will lead to some serious damage. And while on the note of serious damage, remember that most of marths moves become killers when you hit triple digits. You'll have to start avoiding more than just his Fsmash, you'll also have to look out for Utilt/Dtilt, Uair and even Dsmash(although its rarely used)
So yeah, not alot of help I can give you for this match because Kirby is pretty helpless. But wait, theres more. I haven't touched on Marths grab game yet. The big thing to look out for here is the Fthrow. If you DI it towards Marth he can simply regrab you. And as soon as you DI away from him, he can just Fsmash you. Oh yeah, and it will most likely tipper. Isn't that nice? Fthrow->Tipper. Just perfect
hwell: So how do you avoid this? Well, the solution is very simple. Just don't get grabbed. How do you do that? Well, you can just crouch under the grab. Whats that? You say I said that crouching isn't good for this match? Well, its not. BUT, if you can see a grab coming, crouching will work, and you can retaliate with a Dsmash. The problem here comes from Marth's broken grab range. If you're in the air, you cant crouch, and his grab range > your aerial range. And if at any point you tech in this match without some crazy momentum to carry you really far from Marth, more likely than not, he's going to be able to grab you out of it.
But what about Kirby's grab game you ask? The thing I spent so much time explaining in my Captain Falcon post? Forget it, doesn't work here. Dthrow tech chase isn't going to work in this match up as Marth's tech goes too far too fast and technically Marth doesn't even need to tech the throw, he can escape the stun before he hits the ground. Your best bets in this match is either Uthrow for damage and a way to escape, or Bthrow and hope you can get a Bair in afterwords. Other than that, not much going on for Kirby's grab game here:cry:
A few other things to remember about this match up. Do like Hylian did, Dtilt > Dsmash as an edge guard as it has greater priority. FC is NOT to be used in this match unless absolutely necessary, and even mean when recovering. If you can air dodge to the ledge, thats what you should be doing, because Marth's Dtilt will rape your FC. The ONLY time you should use FC is if you are absolutely sure you'll sweet spot the ledge or you absolutely CAN'T get to the ledge any other way. Also, don't use stone, but I guess that goes without sayin XD.
Stage Picks: None, your screwed in this match up. DL 64 if you want to survive a little longer.
Stage Bans: YOSHI STORY!!!
Stages to avoid: All of the other ones.
Victory Percentages: 10/90(Marth's Favor)
Kirby Vs. Roy
Kirby Vs. Roy is a little different in that alot of things that don't work against Marth will work against Roy. Roy has a bit of an advantage over you, but its far from enough to make the fight un-winable.
I'll do this like I always do, stage picks first. Stage's with far walls work best Kirby and work well against Roy. Roy's recovery is one of, if not THE worst so all you really have to worry about is getting him off the stage and he'll more than likely be dead. As such, my level for this match up is Dream Land 64. You don't have to worry much about Roy's range when compared to Marth as Roy HAS to be close to fight, which relieves alot of the pressure from Kirby as far as approaching goes. As such, FD isn't really a BAD choice in this match up, but as far as stages go, DL 64 is your best bet.
As far as stage banning goes, Im gonna say Yoshi Story. Roy CAN get low % kills on YS and his recovery can actually keep him alive on that stage >_> Im also gonna say FoD as a ban, as the platforms combined with Roy's fast fall makes him dangerous. Not alot really to say about stages for this match up. Roy's another one those character that has alot of trouble everywhere(you know, low tier) like Kirby, so outside of FoD Roy has no huge advantages and outside of YS Kirby has no huge disadvantages.
As for the actual fight, Im going to first talk about Roy. Roy DOES have some advantages over Kirby, like the fact that he DOES have more range, he is faster and his grab range is alot farther than Kirby's. One of Roy's main approaches here will be Fair->Dtilt. The Fair will come out fast and stun you and the Dtilt will pop you up to which he can either grab you or Fsmash you. Another big approach is with the DED(Double Edged Dance)forward->DED up which is something else that pop you up for a grab or an Fsmash. Also watch out for Roy's DD as its usually bait for a DED. If you see Roy DDing either wait it out or(and this is the ONLY time you'll hear me say this) you MAY want to go for a Final Cutter. Roy's grab game isn't as good as Marth's, but it is still usable for him. He will probably use Fthrow or Bthrow at low damages and try and use your hit stun to follow up with an Fsmash. Beware of Roy's Fsmash, as sweet spotted it can cause some serious problems. Roy isn't huge on edge guarding, but his Dtilt can knock you out of FC and keep you from the ledge, so you want to try and avoid ever getting hit too far from the ledge.
Kirby has some actual advantages in this fight, which is a rarity, so enjoy it. First off is your recovery distance which is waaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than his. Also, unlike against Marth, you CAN CC alot in this match up as Roy's sweet spot is so close to his body. You should be weary of Dtilt, but you should be able to CC it for a while. Also, your Bair out prioritizes his aerials, which means the Fence of Pain will work well here. Roy is also a semi-fast faller which means he can be combo'd out of Utilt(REAPER COMBO FTW ) and he can be Dthrow->tech chased. However Roy is NOT a heavy weight, despite what alot of n00bs tend to believe. He's actually very light and as such can be taken off of the stage alot easier than Marth. Combined with his horrible recovery range and you can get some easy kill's against him.
There's not alot to this match up, its not horribly broken or anything, its actually pretty even as long as you keep your cool. Just make sure to keep yourself spaced correctly and try to avoid Roy's sweet spot and you should be able to win this one.
Stage Picks: DL 64, FD, Battlefield
Stage Bans: FoD
Stages to Avoid: Yoshi Story(Not a Ban :D)
Victory Percentages: 55/45(Kirby's favor, ZOMG WUT)
Kirby Vs. Y. Link
Kirby versus Young Link is an interesting match-up in that it has two characters with very few killing options. While both characters have kill moves, they require set up and cant simply be spammed like so many other characters(Im looking at you Marth) Alot in this match is going to revolve around building damage and then forcing you opponent into a situation where you can guarantee a killing hit. Unfortunately, despite Young Link being a low tier character, he's still far better than Kirby, especially when it comes to building damage. He's alot faster and has alot of range over you, meaning he's going to be a bit of an annoying fight.
The first thing I want to mention(as I always do) is your stage picks. Y. Link is all about the projectile spam so your going to want to pick a stage that hinders this as much as possible. A good choice would obviously be Corneria as the fin provides cover from every projectile(including bombs) and will force Y.Link to come down and fight you in close quarters. And while I don't normally recommend it for any Kirby match-up, I might even suggest Green Greens as it has alot of cover as well. FD isn't all bad in this fight as its not terribly hard to avoid alot of Y.Link's spam but he's a quick little bugger and he can easily out run you. As for stages to avoid, FoD is definitely a big one, as Yoshi Story. If you cant get to one of the preferred stages, your going to want to use a stage with a large death box. Young Link's recovery isn't as good as his older counter part, so a large death box will keep you alive alot longer than him.
For the actual match, I want to reiterate that there is going to be alot of spam. I mean a LOT. Like, more than pretty much any other character in the game. Y.Link is all about bombs and the boomerang, and if your opponent knows what their doing, they'll keep you pinned down with one, then start spamming the other+arrows. Kirby is an odd character when it comes to avoiding spam, as you can crouch under the boomerang, simply shield the bomb, but you cant really do much when it comes to arrows. They arch downward which means that you cant crouch them, and they shield stab you once your at about 60% shield. You also cant jab cancel them as they have high priority. Luckily, arrows only really become spammable for Y.Link at close range, so if you can avoid the spam, you can get in close.
The close range battle is alot different for this match-up. Y.Links ground attacks are generally slow. His Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, and Usmash are all easily avoidable. His Dsmash and Utilt do come out relatively quickly, but should still be avoidable. His aerial game however is alot better than yours. His Nair sex kick is fast, high priority and can combo into itself. His Fair is slow, but it has better knock back and range. His Bair is is another high priority, low knock back attack making it good for combos and his Uair rapes you if you end up above him. His Dair is a special case in that its really low priority/range and laggy, but very powerful and easily kills Kirby at around 90%
Ok, thats enough about the Y.Link side of this battle, lets move on to the Kirby side(lol, Kirbycide) If you want to be able to compete in this match, your gonna have to stick to your opponent. Don't let Y.Link put distance between you, he has too much of an advantage at a distance. Y.Link is fairly easy to combo, so use the Reaper Combo and use it hard. Utilt->Uair is your friend in this match up as you always want to try and get your opponent off of the stage. Y.Link has a fairly gimpable recovery if you do your job well, but he also has a fairly awesome recovery if he does his job well. At low damages you can CC Dtilt his Up B but if the Y.Link knows what he's doing, he'll space his Up B to hit you with only the last strong hit and then grab the ledge. Your best bet will be to camp the ledge and use ledge invincibility to get around his Up B attack and Bair or Uair him out of it. Y.Link's tether recovery is gimpable ONLY if he doesn't sweet spot it. Use the ledge to stay right above him, then ledge hop a Dair and force it downward. Its hard for Y.Link to avoid this if he's hanging. However, if the Y.Link knows what he's doing, he'll simply use the hook shot then jump instantly from it to get close enough to use his Up B.
Reversing situations, if YOU are recovering, YOUR going to have to play smart to avoid Y.Links edge guards. Now, Y.Link is an odd character in that he doesn't really have a good aerial he can preform from the ledge to kill you. His best kill moves, Nair/Dair, have far too much lag to be usable. Because of that, Y.Links edge guard is centered around moves he can use ON the stage rather than off of it. The most obvious would be Dtilt or Dsmash and there's two very good ways to avoid those. If your close enough to the ledge, the best way to avoid those would just be to Air Dodge up either on to the stage or on to the ledge. If the Y.Link uses Dtilt, the stage is your best bet as its laggy but if he uses Dsmash your going to want to aim for the ledge as the attack has a second part(behind him) and lasts long enough to hit you if you land on the stage. Now, theres a second situation that will most likely come up, and thats where your far too low to be able to Air Dodge through the attack. When this situation comes up, your obviously stuck with the Final Cutter. Now, obviously, your best option here would simply be to sweet spot the ledge, but thats by no means easy. If you know that your not going to sweet spot the ledge, you should always attempt to tech the attack. Now, I know that that seems hard, but its really not. Just press L/R when you start moving up in the animation. The attack is quick enough and the tech window is large enough that you should be able to hit it relatively easily.
Next is the grab game, which, for maybe the first time ever, YOU have the advantage in. Y.Link's grab is slow to come out and even slower to end if it misses, so you wont see alot of grabbing on your opponents side. If he does get a grab your not gonna see much more than a Dthrow from him as it his only combo throw. You can wiggle out of the hit stun at low damages and get in an attack before he can get to you(I suggest DIing to the side and Bairing him) However, be careful at high damages as your hit stun will make you vulnerable to a Dthrow->Dair combo. Your grab on the other hand. comes out quickly and your throw game is actually pretty good in this match up. The hit stun from your Dthrow IS escapable at around 40%(maybe lower) but most opponents will actually go for the tech anyways >.> If thats the case, Y.Link is a very tech chase-able character and as such, you should use it to your advantage. Bthrow is good near the ledge, especially if you can get a Bair in as well. I'd avoid using the Uthrow as it just puts distance between you and Y.Link which is something you want to avoid.
Finally, some things to remember. Bair spam works well in this match-up, use it as much as possible. Stone can also play an interesting role as you can use it as a mindgame(as stated originally by Hylian) you can turn to stone, and then right as Y.Link attempts to grab you can release the stone and dodge the grab. From there you can punish with a smash, Fsmash if your near the ledge, Toe Dsmash if your near the ledge and he's at high damage, Usmash if he's no where near the ledge >_>
Stage Picks: DL 64, Kongo Jungle 64
Stage Bans: FD, FoD
Stages to avoid: Pokemon Stadium
Victory Percentages: 40/60(Y.Links Favor)
Last edited by
The Pink Reaper
, 9:28 PM on Jun 27, 2008
1:38 PM May 24 2008 2008
Joined: Mar 2007
Yay, you finally put in a few more posts. I was going to comment earlier, but I didn't want to intrude on possible 'extra space' for editing later.
This is looking really good. I Want to say that there should be something for the Kirby vs. Kirby matchup, though. I didn't think they were that bad in Melee (I think they can be pretty bad in Brawl, though). There should be some pointers and comments about the match since the more informed Kirby player with a better understanding of the matchup will win.
2:58 AM May 26 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
Ummm, crap >.> The reason I made the extra posts is cus I maxed out the space for the first one. Then the second one >_> If i dont have enough space in that third post you might have to move your post around t!mmy(Mods can do that right?)
Btw, this is all one post on SWF >.>
9:51 PM May 26 2008 2008
Spread the Love
Joined: Mar 2008
So now Crash Boards are better?
Good job on these. I need help on my Melee Kirby and have a hard time with Captain Falcon.
7:49 PM May 27 2008 2008
Joined: Mar 2007
the posts can hold?
Maybe I'll just add the rest to my post? :D
2:57 AM May 28 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
Well, actually, the first post held up until half way through gannon, but I didn't want to split it up so I just put it in the next post. But yeah, thats all we get
6:55 PM May 28 2008 2008
Joined: Mar 2007
You have Roy at 45/55 (Kirby's favor). I think you might be basing this on the fact that there are no good Roy players. I never saw a 'real' Roy main at any tournament, and by 'real' I mean someone who mostly used Roy
knew how to play the game. Even if I did come across a real Roy player (Neo?) I doubt they'd have any Kirby experience. So, with all that in consideration, yeah Kirby
have an advantage. But as far as the theoretical match-up goes, Roy definitly has the advantage. Faster attacks, more range, better combos, quicker dash, attacks that can KO Kirby at low percents... everything but recovery. And even then, Kirby has a hard time getting around Blazer's priority. I'd say 55/45 (Roy's favor) at best. I'd have to actually play against a real Roy main to fully decide the rating.
11:40 PM May 28 2008 2008
The Pink Reaper
Joined: Mar 2008
Neh neh, thats originally what I was gonna put it at but then I realized that the "Range" Roy has over Kirby is really more of an illusion. Think about it, the sweet spot on his sword is so close to his body that he can't really hit hard unless he's way up close. And while his Fsmash is waaaay strong(can easily kill kirby at low percents) he lacks ANYTHING else that can kill Kirby other than the easy to see coming Blazer and DED. In this particular match up Kirby really does have an easier time killing Roy than Roy does Kirby simply because Roy's dead at around 70% due to his horrendous recovery. And Roy's faster dash is mostly negated by not having anything that he can do quickly out of it. Dash attack, CC'd Smashes, even his wavedash is slow to come out(<3 Kirby's 3 frame jumps) And while I hate to use Nick as an example, but as a(former) Roy main he does have alot of practice against a Kirby player(not a GOOD kirby player but a Kirby player none the less >.> ) and even he admits that anything Roy has over Kirby is instantly destroyed by the Reaper Combo(but then, what ISN'T?)
2:14 PM Jun 24 2008 2008
Joined: Mar 2007
Are you going to finish this?
(I still think Roy has the advantage on Kirby).
7:59 PM Jul 14 2008 2008
Joined: Jul 2008
the young link link (um.. yeah) leads to hylian vs. kal 3, not a YL match. this is a very detailed and awesome thread, a lot more filled up than many other matchup threads. itd be great to read the rest when they come
3:00 AM Jul 20 2008 2008
Joined: Jul 2008
I need one on pikachu.
Ill be checkin inn.
4:22 PM Jul 21 2008 2008
Joined: Feb 2008
thats good stuff, thats good stuff
i love the stage choice suggestions
6:25 PM Aug 5 2008 2008
Joined: Aug 2008
I like how there is more information here than on the SSBM Fox threads.
9:16 PM Aug 17 2008 2008
Addicted to Wifi
Joined: Aug 2008
I played a marth recently (keep in mind I have not played melee almost a year)... I remember why this match is so hard.
I also forgot that kirby's throws were suicidal and performed it on my last stock (he had 2).
Man... melee and brawl kirbys are so different.
9:58 PM Aug 18 2008 2008
Joined: Aug 2008
^When the going gets tough, the Kirby player chooses a counter-pick.
6:26 PM Aug 20 2008 2008
Addicted to Wifi
Joined: Aug 2008
Quote (originally posted by
^When the going gets tough, the Kirby player chooses a counter-pick.
NEVER!!!! My kirby just needs a little work...yay that it...it's not kirby's fault that he is soft and squishy. He just needs some motivation to become the ultimate fighter. We must maintain strength and be steadfast devouring anyone that stands in the way. You, Mr. Tomato Kirby, may forsake kirby and flirt with the enemy but I will not!!!
2:37 PM Feb 19 2010 2010
Joined: Aug 2009
Match-up between Peach and Kirby?
10:41 PM Aug 25 2010 2010
Joined: Aug 2010
I need help vs the Ice climbers.
News and Announcements
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Latin & South America
Custom Brawl Content
Texture of the Week Contests
PM Character Chat
Super Smash Bros. Melee
Friendly & Other Multiplayer Videos
Super Smash Bros. (64)
Smash Bros. 64 Discussion
Signature of the Week Contests
Mario Kart Wii
Mario Strikers Charged
Pokémon General Discussion
The Food Court
The Geek Squad
The Record Shop
Werewolf & Mafia
copyright © 2005-2013 allisnetworks |
design by dcarter