lolol, made my morning.

Saying that just because it's Brawl means that it's going to die is a bad line of reasoning. But even if it's going to die, since I still like playing the game, I want its lifespan to stay as long as possible. And taking away something that the majority if people are tired of definitely will help with that. 



Only really applies to a bunch of the top tiers. There are a lot of low and mid tiers who have somewhat undeveloped metagames, and one of the reasons for that is that people give up on those characters after always losing to high tiers and they just go MK or something in the end. MK is largely responsible for this, cause most other high tiers have some sort of counter, and he doesn't - he has at worst an even matchup with all. In doubles too... it comes down to MK in the end, almost every time you're playing a serious team. You can try and argue with what I'm saying, but I have some serious doubles experience as my ladder badges would show.



Look at Apex. At the top we see double MK, double MK... and then, what? Snake and Diddy? Razer and Gnes team a lot and are from the same city, while M2K and ANTi don't even live close to each other, but look who gets further. Not gonna even get started on Otori and Kakera. I watched all the Razer + Gnes teamwork in the Apex videos, and it was pretty damn good (they take characters who don't work together too well, and they make up for that by teamwork and pure skill). Then I watch double MK... and I see rape going on, without even 1/2 as much effort as Razer and Gnes put in. If you're gonna tell me that the reason that M2K and ANTi beat Razer and Gnes was because they have better synergy... yeah, not buying it (though they are all amazing players). I've seen some really good team combos like ZSS and GaW, but I have yet to be convinced that any are better than double MK, and for certain, none are easier than double MK. I've seen: Vinnie going MK instead of GaW, HolyNightmare going MK instead of ROB, Ally going MK instead of Snake, Trevonte going MK instead of FOX, Nakat going MK instead of Fox, FOW going MK instead of Ness, MJG going MK instead of TL, Bizkit going MK instead of Snake, and all these were for competitive doubles. And that's not all - the list goes on and on. If MK is legal... why would anyone want to use any other character? Especially in doubles where you admit that he is involved in most good team combos. It's not that "most of our community sucks", because the people I mentioned are good. It's that MK is so good that there's no reason to use anyone else (other than to compliment him) if you can just use him.
 


I team all the time with a player who goes a low tier competitively, and I can tell you... hard work matters, yeah, but in the end of the day... you can outplay someone with a low tier and still lose. Especially in doubles, where all the MK has to do is get you offstage and edgehog. The stages thing isn't really related to this either.



They said that years ago, and you know what? Things are still the same. MK still wins, and the matchup chart still has him having no bad matchups. We could go another 3 years... and nothing would change. He is still by a huge margin the best character in the history of Smash, and his frama data is ridiculous, his recovery is flawless, his moveset is great, and no amount of improvement on anyone's part is going to change that. Other communities have banned characters before in other fighting games, so giving ourselves a break from a overcentralizing, overpowered character isn't something that's never been heard of before. 



Doesn't change the fact that despite how much practice people put into learning how to fight MK, they STILL lose to him. Ally still loses to him. Esam still loses to him. And the list still goes on. Unlike Melee top tiers, which can be combo'd and gimped reliably, this is in Brawl and the gameplay is different. And on wifi, people still lose to MK. In the end, most people are tired of it, and we'd like a change of tempo. Sure, without double MK, there's gonna be GaW, but Snake counters GaW. And then, Olimar counters Snake. And we see counterpicking and we get something other than the same old.

Anyway I've said enough, but my point still stands that I think most people are tired of it, and since we're a community of people who play together, the game should be played in a way that the majority of the players enjoy. Which is why I'm glad to see this poll, I think it's a step in the right direction, and I support it very much. Haters gonna hate, but the rest of us are eager to see what Doubles Ladder will look like without it being the same as all the past seasons.

Double MK isn't that big of a deal that it should be banned the characters that all are capable of beating him are those with fairly even matchups, and it's not a secert that metaknight's 50-50's are with other top tiers: snake, diddy kong, ice climbers, and with a slight advantage wario and falco. All of the above characters can easily deal with a double MK with shere effort and outskilling the metaknight users. Low-tier characters that get obliterated by metaknight, will merely be taken out by other double DDDs, snakes, falcos, diddy kongs, ice climbers, etc. without double mk's existance. It is pointless to vote for the ban if this is your reasoning.

I wouldn't want both to be banned, double mk has kinda got me thinking, the only thing I really want banned is infinite grabs (not in dubs that requires 2 partners) but like Grab release to regrab stuff where you can't escape and all you can do is sit there and take it.

I think chaingrabbing should be aloud but to a certain extent.

ADHD too good.

Quit treating MK like some God. You act like NO OTHER CHARACTER IN THE GAME is very good in teams. Wario is incredible. Wario is a natural stock tank, so he can freely go offense to defense as he pleases, he has great KO moves, is very difficult to punish, and has amazing team combos including an infinite.  Wario can always recover, so he doesn't need a save either. So what if Meta Knight can multi-task. It just means he'll be more popular, doesn't mean he can do what he does best.

Which infinite? Wario can mostly run away, but so can MK and he doesn't have quite as good ways for getting inside the opponent as MK has. You don't punish Wario by shielding his attacks, you punish him by throwing out hitboxes when he approaches because he has terrible range. Wario doesn't really gimp either. Other than that, yeah Wario is great for supporting and team combos. Double MK may or may not be the best team but the best teams all consist of MK. Why would otherwise almost every single MK allowed tourney I watch have at least 1 MK per team? MK is the best character in teams at just about everything except killing early outside gimps (though landing kill moves isn't hard for MK) and his only weaknesses, which can be barely called as a weakness, are his pretty low weight and slow horizontal aerial movement outside glide and Tornado. Wario lacks good range and disjoints (which can make it quite difficult for him to go in).  I feel like MK in teams should really be banned, but banning double MK first is a good start for that to happen in the future.

Diska, you just admitted that MK should be banned because our community is bored with him/uses him to much (not your exact words, but that's basically what you were saying). Okay, let's ban spacies from Melee because it's getting boring to see them all the time. Ridiculous. Last I checked, banning something for any reason other than the fact that it is game-breaking is a sure mark of scrubdom. And you admitted that double MK isn't game-breaking, so yeah...
As for community growth, you say that our community has been slowly decreasing over the years. No duh, that's what happens to most any game as it ages. It doesn't help your credibility to assume that this decrease MUST somehow magically be related to the fact that double MK teams are legal on the AiB Doubles Ladder.
Also, just a correction: Brawl MK is not the best character in the history of Smash (certainly not by a "huge margin" as you so eloquently exaggerate it)- that would be 64 Pika.

Spacies have counters/bad matchups or stages. MK doesn't. Also double MK is game-breaking in the doubles metagame for this reason and many others.  



Overall, the offline community has been decreasing, but the tournaments such as Concentrate that did NOT have MK allowed got more hype. Which leads me to believe (along with the words of many prospective new smashers and other players who don't participate regularly) that MK is discouraging to them and they're tired of always seeing him, which leads to less attendance. This is similar to wifi, where a lot of players I've talked to don't even bother with doubles ladder because of double MK. 



The difference is that Pika in SSB64 is susceptible to combos and gimps and setups just like anyone else in that game; he's just the best at it. MK however is good at everything but the two things listed above (light weight, low horizontal mobility outside of special moves and glide) and two others: he has no projectile, and he has a very slight problem with air releases that affects only a few matchups of his. With Brawl's physics and gameplay, he is undeniably much better the top tier characters of Melee or SSB64, as is evidenced by his monetary winnings and placings. 

Now, if anyone who does NOT use MK wishes to talk about this to me, bring it on. The rest of you MK users can stop complaining and trying to argue against public opinion, and just watch the poll go on. 

Quick note: there are some really killer MK players out there and using MK does not mean someone has any less skill.  And then there are people who really couldn't do well without him.  I hate banning someone's main but he really does break the CPing system.  It's even worse on wifi.


MK was banned recently.  New players learn to adapt to characters if they're committed enough; MK scares new people away more than any other factor because he's da bess, period.

This is a wifi ladder.  Lag can really hurt teams/characters but I've never seen a decent MK SD.  The easiest team+lag weighs against skill and better teams when lag hurts their teamwork.
(MK and) double MK can't be stage counter picked to hurt them but they can rain hell on several CPs.

By 'you people' do you mean everyone who plays a character(s) with a bad MK MU?  It's not just low tiers.  How are you catering to anything but keeping MK legal?

An MK player blaming "the real cause (The retarded stages YOU left legal)", that's a first (no sarcasm).  MK's consistently top ranked because he's widely acknowledged as the best character who breaks the CP system.  Other characters can be character/stage countered.

it probably didn't make Wafty's, lol

For what it's worth, here's the BBR's MU chart: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316173

0:
1:
2:
3:
4:
And tier list:
S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake
B: Falco, Marth, Pikachu, Wario
C: Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
(end of high tiers)
D: Wolf, Mr. Game & Watch, Fox, Peach, Pit
E: R.O.B., Kirby, Sheilda, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Ike, Sheik
F: Yoshi, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Luigi
G: Lucas, Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon
H: Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf

^This.

  
Typical for pro-bans, you have this much trouble making up your mind about the facts, yet you think you know enough about the metagame to know for absolute certainty that double MK should be banned.
I recently watched a stream of Doubles Grand Finals in Japan, with people like Nietono participating. I don't remember the details and doubt it was uploaded to Youtube, but there was like one Meta Knight in GFs out of all four player slots. Americans really need to stop being so near-sighted and thinking that everything which currently dominates in a game is "broken" and should be banned.


Anything that's new gets hype. Banning MK is a fresh take on the metagame, so it piques the interest of people until they get used to it. But you're still shying away from the fact that double MK is absolutely beatable  by alternate teams (and absolutely not game-breaking). Really, the best "proof" of double MK's "brokenness" you can come up with is its ease of use. Now just imagine if everything that was easy to use was banned...lol

  
Wow, you're actually trying to argue that Brawl MK is more dominant than 64 Pika? You're arguing against an established fact in the Smash community. Pikachu cannot be counterpicked in any way, has the only good recovery in the game, the best gimping game...on and on the list goes. Due to Smash 64's simpler mechanics, there are less options to play around the best character and Pikachu's dominance is much more readily apparent.

Fixed. 
 

WOW lol, that was quite liberal of you, Diska. Now why don't you go talk to the Japanese players?

Change is met with heavy resistance.  Banning MK is not even close to a new topic.  The Unity ruleset determined MK will be banned after MUCH discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301033
"5. Meta Knight is banned in both Singles and Doubles (optional until January 9th, 2012, after which is mandatory)" the decision was not made lightly.  AiB was nice enough to let their members discuss and vote on the ban for their ladder.  The poll shows the majority of AiB wifi players agree with the Unity Rules (at least partially) banning MK.

When I said "double MK is not game breaking, but it is" I meant that in and of itself, it doesn't break the game to the point that the game is no longer unplayable... however, it breaks the doubles metagame.

This conversation has become pointless anyway. All that matters is that basically there's 3 to 1 ratio of people who want dub MK out, and that means that next ladder, it's gonna be interesting to play, for once. -DIP-

For everyone arguing about this you can cool it a bit. If you feel like debating this then feel free, but the decision will not be solely based on the results of the poll. Currently the results are 477 votes for yes and 171 votes for no. That's a total of 648 votes. I'm rather confident that if you added all the players individually (as in by players and not by teams) that ever played a single match in doubles ladder since it's been created you wouldn't get 648 participants. Because of this I have to assume that the results are rather biased. Biased or not though 73.6% of the votes being for the ban gives me an idea of what the community wants. I'm not going voice my opinion on the subject, but I see where both parties are coming from. If anything I would really like to at least give the ban a try and see where that takes us. We'll see where we end up after I gather all the information I'm looking for.

Singles- Keep MK,
Doubles- Ban him.

Are you kidding, they are gonna want mk banned altogether.
As for my opinion, i dont participate in doubles ladder, but I think 1 mk is fine, 2 is too much.

His cool in singles, but doubles is to much fam... :/

So this is an AiB research thread more than debate. It looks like a successful one too, with good points and opinions from the site community. The poll numbers are slowing down.

...I'm glad to be in the majority *shrug*

People pretending matchups offline are the same on wifi. Funny.

and whats tht suppose to mean? :/ n no i'm just being stupid lol


nvm about last comment U_U anywayz double mk seems kinda weird n I prefer him by himself so it's obvi a yes .