Discuss.

Dair beats MK's up b.

Ok, what should I do when a mk is spamming my shield with dair?

is utilt fast enough? cause utilt is pretty strong.

is shield jumped nair fast enough?

No way I think. Plus he just outrange nair. He'd have to space it pretty badly.

Yeah dair works pretty well against ness, especially offstage. If he gets above you and just keeps jumping+dair, just roll or run away so you're not under him anymore, and try to approach from the side with fair or something. If he's literally on top of you, jumping air dodge out of the shield is pretty much the only way to escape without getting hit.

Does a short hopped nair then double jump ASAP keep you high enough to be safe from the rape-tastic dsmash?

we spent so much time worrying about the dsmash when we were talking about him.

I think in summary, we had decided that if you had a lot of shield, it was safest just to let him pound away until you're knocked far enough away to do stuff, but mind your shield afterwards.

dsmash is too fast to spotdodge away from, so dont do that.

dsmash comes out in less frames than anything you have. (one less than all of your fastest stuff) I suppose if you're quick you can capitalize on his ending lag. I have no idea how much he has in terms of ending lag though.

I remember shield jumped nair and jabs being fastest at four frames or so, which is what you would be using to keep him from continuous dsmash. I have no idea how quick you have to be though.

there's always powershielding though.

K well I didnt feel like looking through that huge shotbox topic. I like these tiny threads better.
Does Ness' fair outrange MKs? I honestly havent played many.

That's a really really good question actually. Probably the absolute best question to ask while talking about MK.


Protein pretty much said everything important about MK that we talked about. The only other point worthy of note would be how badly fair rapes his Mach Tornado. Just stay low, fair him, then DI away, as long as you stay low and DI away before he can Mach Tornado again, he'll only be able to hit you when he's below you.

I think it does, but I'm not 100%.

it does for sure beat tornado. (if you do it right)

also, if he's below you with a tornado, you have an option there too. Dair will go right through the tornado. just hope it comes out faster than he can ascend to meet you.

also, for shuttle loops,
theres dair, but someone already said that.
pk thunder will give him trouble too
and powershielding works for everything.

my favorite by far, is having him shuttleloop into a tailwhip>PKT2SAM

good luck setting it up though.

Damnit Protein. Don't fill their minds with thoughts of Tailwhip to PKT2. They'll die 10,000 times getting it to work and it probably won't even kill MK when it does.

worked for me. once. and he's really light, so it defiantly killed.

I never said it was practical, although I have a feeling that simna's powershield>pk thunder would lead to this nicely. I'll have to try it sometime.

anyways, you heard Ademisk's warning. use with caution.

anyways, I forgot something important.

your dair trades with his uair.

I kill metaknights with dair constantly.
what's better is that it's always when they're trying to edgeguard me.

so, if you're being edgeguarded, make sure they edgeguard you from below, and then you can spike them.

How do you guys approach against MK. Pk fire won't work against him. He can d-smash you in the pillar.

you cant be dsmashed when above him. dair trades with usmash and uair. (maybe also utilt)

I'm pretty sure that MK's slow airspeed will let you fair him plenty. and if you space properly I think your sparks can outrange his butterknife.

alternatively, don't approach. you can beat tornado and most of his aerials if you can engage in midair. RARbair will clank glide attack. PK thunder or sh fair when waiting. (or maybe PK fire if that's somehow applicable)

even more funny, jump off the stage. when he follows to edgeguard you (from below, cause you jumped first), give him spikes. your dair will go through everything he has.

I approach aggressively and suprisingly. Also, dair and fair is the normal fare for Ness, isn't it?

yes. cause the solve everything. very few moves will go through a fair approach.

I suppose (reverse) PK jumps if you never want to get hit by dsmash. and then instead of doing something from the floor, either dair or more PK fire.

So you are pretty much limited to approaching with fair? Thanks. I want to play agressively vs. MK cuz everybody here plays defensively against them and it's not working.

dair? I'm pretty sure I said that a few times. (although you have to aim different)

or I guess PK fire, but that seems...inelegant.

I play aggresively against MK. You have to dance around the edge of their range with Fairs, dairs, midair PK Fire(not PK Jump, too risky if it misses and MK is too fast not to punish you for it) and the occasional PKT to piss them off when they get too high or back off. I've even managed to headshot an MK trying to dair me with a PKT, the dair didn't get out in time, it was pretty funny.  You can even use bair if you can catch them at the end of their fair, just be careful with it, and come in from above slightly so they can't just dair your *** into oblivion.  Obviously, use of nair as a quick move is good, and I find that uair is REALLY good against MK you can get it off quick enough(rising Dairs out of another attack do this best, and you can kill MK at pretty low %s with this).  I think Vicegrip opened my eyes to a good way to use yoyos, but it might've been Edrees.  Yeah I think it was Edrees.  They'd probably do good against MK, run in after an fair, and use an upsmash, hold it out if he starts going back, let it go if he comes after you again.  Don't try to hit him with it on the ground, it's dumb and he'll own you.

I bat a lot of MKs.  Is it just me? 

Fair into ftilt.  Do it ******. 

Mother.  ****ing.  Uptilt. 





Also, PK Flash.  A LOT.  Like constantly.   If you're not using PK Flash, you're probably losing.

How would you use pk flash and uptilt in this matchup? Elaborate please